Inside School Number One: the full horror of Russia's 9/11

[KellyB369]

Originally posted by moe.ron
There was also the case for the Moscow theatre situation. Did you know that two civilians just walked into the front of the door and went into the situation. They were not stop once by the police or the military as they walked into the building. Both were killed when they entered. You have to wonder who is running the police and the military.

I am wondering the same thing myself. I am not knocking the way they handled this because that would be wrong and unfair, but in hindsight it does seem that it could have been taken care of in a better way. I read in the Washington Post (sorry, I don't have a link) that it was reported that everyone still in the gym was dead so they opened fire, but then later it was said that perhaps there were still people alive in there.
This whole thing is tragic! I think a lot of people are starting to think something like it could happen here. I have faith though that if it did our government would handle it a little bit better.

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
The strategic issue in the War on Terror is the nations that are economically disconnected from the rest of the world. There is virtually no direct foreign investment in these nations, and oil really doesn't count. Which nations are they? Its Arabs. How is radical disent manifested in these nations? In the name of Islam. Where do they get their popular support? From Muslims, especially through Arabian media outlets. Terrorism always relies on PR, and moderate Muslims have remained relatively silent. They are under attack as much as anyone else.

How will this be resolved? By direct foreign investement so that these nations can be integrated into the modern world. When will this happen? When its safe for foreign investment in these nations. When will it be safe? When foreign nationals are no longer kidnapped and capital is not blown up. Also when there is an educated population that can both participate in the global economy, as well as fight Islamic radicals.

A weapon against Modernity is Arab media, and it is Islamic in conotation. Non-Arab muslims are not really challanging this, so Arabian news represents Muslims by default. Because of all of this, it is very relevant in North America.

I still don't see why other non-arab nations should get involved with the problems in the middle-east? Every country has its own interests and problems and basically what you are saying is, just because we happen to share the same religion that the ME is that of a muslim one and not of politics. Don't you think that simple-minded? Non-Arabs essentially don't have anything to do with these conflicts, whether we are falsely represented. And you seem intelligent, and you can tell its false representation, so why insist that it does in fact represent ALL MUSLIMS? Are we, the international muslim community, supposed to take up arms against terrorists, rebels, geurillas, separatists, extremist. movements, etc that falsely uses our name? And if so, what about the Christians, hindus, Jews, etc etc........? wouldn't the same apply to them..?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
I still don't see why other non-arab nations should get involved with the problems in the middle-east? Every country has its own interests and problems and basically what you are saying is, just because we happen to share the same religion that the ME is that of a muslim one and not of politics. Don't you think that simple-minded? Non-Arabs essentially don't have anything to do with these conflicts, whether we are falsely represented. And you seem intelligent, and you can tell its false representation, so why insist that it does in fact represent ALL MUSLIMS? Are we, the international muslim community, supposed to take up arms against terrorists, rebels, geurillas, separatists, extremist. movements, etc that falsely uses our name? And if so, what about the Christians, hindus, Jews, etc etc........? wouldn't the same apply to them..?

Again, it is not just Arabs. Stop being so anti-Arab.

-Rudey
--It is Islam that unites these terrorists and not being Arab.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
I don't advocate terror. I am in search of peace and I am not afraid to see reality on the ground instead of fake ideals.

-Rudey

I see... so the suggestion of burning villages, razing homes, or going after the families of terrorists isn't advocating the use of terror?

See this is the same logic used by the Nazis in fighting insurrgents or resistance fighters during WW2 (which they called terrorists)... first it started with reprisals against the "terrorists" themselves... then they decided to target the homes/families of the terrorists for "supporting" them... this of course logically led to the conclusion that anyone "supporting" the terrorists must also be punished as an example, so the whole community was then held to account.

You claim to be in search of peace, but advocate the use of terror to enact revenge against "terrorists", their families, and their communities... without realizing that this will invariably lead to even more hatred and acts of revenge; thus continuing to feed the cycle.

As for your comment of seeing the reality on the ground, I didn't realize that you were also an expert or past citizen of Chechnya as well... or dealt with acts of terrorism personall... or are you just another arm-chair general like your beloved Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz?

[Rudey]

Keep talking. You always talk Cooper. You talk as if that itsy bitsy military training has allowed you to talk about things you don't know about. You post lies and misconstrue things all over and sorta just let it go when I correct you so often. Me an armchair general? No - but my ties to Iran and Israel as well as my vast reading everyday of the region and on terrorism help me to understand it. You? Just another Anglo who makes up facts about "the ground" and qualifies it with your "military training".

And again there is a difference between acts that will discourage the use of terrorism by showing the price will increase and acts that just make it easier for terrorism to grow.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
I see... so the suggestion of burning villages, razing homes, or going after the families of terrorists isn't advocating the use of terror?

See this is the same logic used by the Nazis in fighting insurrgents or resistance fighters during WW2 (which they called terrorists)... first it started with reprisals against the "terrorists" themselves... then they decided to target the homes/families of the terrorists for "supporting" them... this of course logically led to the conclusion that anyone "supporting" the terrorists must also be punished as an example, so the whole community was then held to account.

You claim to be in search of peace, but advocate the use of terror to enact revenge against "terrorists", their families, and their communities... without realizing that this will invariably lead to even more hatred and acts of revenge; thus continuing to feed the cycle.

As for your comment of seeing the reality on the ground, I didn't realize that you were also an expert or past citizen of Chechnya as well... or dealt with acts of terrorism personall... or are you just another arm-chair general like your beloved Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz?

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Keep talking. You always talk Cooper. You talk as if that itsy bitsy military training has allowed you to talk about things you don't know about. You post lies and misconstrue things all over and sorta just let it go when I correct you so often. Me an armchair general? No - but my ties to Iran and Israel as well as my vast reading everyday of the region and on terrorism help me to understand it. You? Just another Anglo who makes up facts about "the ground" and qualifies it with your "military training".

And again there is a difference between acts that will discourage the use of terrorism by showing the price will increase and acts that just make it easier for terrorism to grow.

-Rudey

Wow your just full of contradictions ain't ya? But anyways I will always keep talking, as that is my right... and also my hope, my hope that by talking others will be encouraged discuss issues of import, instead of being told what they should think.

You deride others for their reliance on books when argueing a point you disagree with, while you tout your book reading as a qualifier of your knowledge...

Now if you had used some of your touted reading ability you might have read in earlier posts about my military service in addition to my military training... I have witness the evil that can be perpetrated in the name of religion or country.

So you have ties to Iran and Israel? So what, does that make you any more of an expert than those who also have friends, family, or cultural ties to the very same region? I am disgusted by your continued allegations and attempts to link either Islam or Arab peoples to terrorism, as if Islam or Arabs are to blame for terrorism.

Your constant insults against other's backgrounds, politics, religion, culture, country makes your post about racist brothers sadly commical - you meet one every day when you look in the mirror. Case in point: using the term "Anglo" or "Anglo-boy" as a insulting or dismissive term is in fact a racist... after-all that is what you would call me if I dismissed you as "Jew" or "Jew-boy" wouldn't you?

Finally think about this please:
Terrorism will be removed when the causes or conditions that breed it are removed, not by using methods that ensure it's survival in an enviroment of hate and an atmosphere of revenge.

[Rudey]

You make no sense. And again you are not an expert. I read, you don't read. I have ties, you don't have ties. You make allegations and lie, and I tell the truth.

Again, this was an act perpetrated by Chechans which are majority Muslim with Arab Muslim terrorists who assisted them. Again, you are a little no-nothing who keeps talking and talking. You are the man who threatened also to kill me. You threatened to gut me. You told me there was a reason you left the military and insinuated it was for violence. You want to keep up with the personal attacks even after you shamed yourself and your fraternity Mr. Psycho Killer? Go for it.

You can call me Jew Boy. You can also create posts prefaced with warnings about how some have called you an anti-semite. Being an Anglo and me calling you an Anglo-boy is not racist, not bigoted, not anti-semitic, and not even ignorant. Look up those terms and stop cheapening the sad experiences of others. You are just a nobody that keeps spouting ignorance and lies and that's fine with me because I will keep correcting and embarassing you at every step of the way.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Wow your just full of contradictions ain't ya? But anyways I will always keep talking, as that is my right... and also my hope, my hope that by talking others will be encouraged discuss issues of import, instead of being told what they should think.

You deride others for their reliance on books when argueing a point you disagree with, while you tout your book reading as a qualifier of your knowledge...

Now if you had used some of your touted reading ability you might have read in earlier posts about my military service in addition to my military training... I have witness the evil that can be perpetrated in the name of religion or country.

So you have ties to Iran and Israel? So what, does that make you any more of an expert than those who also have friends, family, or cultural ties to the very same region? I am disgusted by your continued allegations and attempts to link either Islam or Arab peoples to terrorism, as if Islam or Arabs are to blame for terrorism.

Your constant insults against other's backgrounds, politics, religion, culture, country makes your post about racist brothers sadly commical - you meet one every day when you look in the mirror. Case in point: using the term "Anglo" or "Anglo-boy" as a insulting or dismissive term is in fact a racist... after-all that is what you would call me if I dismissed you as "Jew" or "Jew-boy" wouldn't you?

Finally think about this please:
Terrorism will be removed when the causes or conditions that breed it are removed, not by using methods that ensure it's survival in an enviroment of hate and an atmosphere of revenge.

[AKA_Monet]

I'm sorry, but this whole event that happened in Belsan, Russia--I truly find it ironic...

Putin skrait flexed his ancient KGB ties with "Soviet style" and no more mofo's are gonna fcuk with him and his gang--I mean group... Unless they sniff up some angel dust with crack...

And as far as the "innocents" go... It is unfortunate... But that's what happens in Gangland, U.S.S.R... And if mo'fo's are gonna rob 'n' steal... Well, they gets "got" by the Po-po...

Biggie Smalls must be rollin' with his Tec-9 in his grave...

Same chit happening here, just a different language...

And that's the word on the street...

[moe.ron]

If history repeat itself, there will be another "zachistki" which will see men between the ages of 15 and 49 face the threat of theft, beatings, arrest, and murder by Russian soldiers.

According to Jackson Diehl "the campaign by the Russian military and police against Chechnya's separatists has degenerated into a full-fledged dirty war, complete with disappearances, mass graves, systematic torture and summary execution of civilians." Some even called what is going on in Chechnya as mini-genocide.

A 2001 Article On Chechnya

Refugee problem in Chechnya and Russia

"[W]e have an atmosphere of continuous and very serious violence. There are regular attacks on Russian forces by Chechen fighters. . . . The Russian forces, in retaliation, ostensibly to flush out or go after what they think are the fighters, are shelling cities and villages. They shoot into apartments, into houses. . . So-called sweeps by Russian forces occur all the time after an attack on a Russian soldier or group of soldiers or a Russian vehicle. They sweep into town with 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 soldiers in vehicles and they often arrest people en masse. They often kill people, seemingly at random, but they rush into the villages and wreak havoc."

-Len Rubenstein, executive director of Physicians for Human Rights

[Rudey]

I posted a good NY Times piece in another thread about how instead of sticking to just condeming this awful terorrist act, people move quickly to talk about the Russian government. Two birds, need two stones and Russian soldiers did not stockpile weapons in a school to massacre children, Chechans did.

-Rudey

Originally posted by moe.ron
If history repeat itself, there will be another "zachistki" which will see men between the ages of 15 and 49 face the threat of theft, beatings, arrest, and murder by Russian soldiers.

According to Jackson Diehl "the campaign by the Russian military and police against Chechnya's separatists has degenerated into a full-fledged dirty war, complete with disappearances, mass graves, systematic torture and summary execution of civilians." Some even called what is going on in Chechnya as mini-genocide.

A 2001 Article On Chechnya

Refugee problem in Chechnya and Russia


-Len Rubenstein, executive director of Physicians for Human Rights

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
I posted a good NY Times piece in another thread about how instead of sticking to just condeming this awful terorrist act, people move quickly to talk about the Russian government. Two birds, need two stones and Russian soldiers did not stockpile weapons in a school to massacre children, Chechans did.

-Rudey

Yes, and the only way to avoid another horrible incident like this is to try and find a political solution to Chechnya. Unfortunatley I don't see it happening, since Putin have said that this incident was not caused by what is happening in Chechnya.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Yes, and the only way to avoid another horrible incident like this is to try and find a political solution to Chechnya. Unfortunatley I don't see it happening, since Putin have said that this incident was not caused by what is happening in Chechnya.

It's not. People made a brutal decision to be murderers and can say it's for whatever reason, but really the reason is that they are murderers.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
It's not. People made a brutal decision to be murderers and can say it's for whatever reason, but really the reason is that they are murderers.

-Rudey

Yes people made the choice to be brutal murderers, for whatever reason - now if the community retatliates against these murders by becoming murderers themselves. The problem is that this cycle of murder is what is happening in Chechnya, with both sides guilty of being brutal murderers.

In a dirty war such as this both sides have committed acts that can be considered war crimes - Russian soldiers or paramilitaries have committed them, just as the Chechen rebels have. This particular story has only shed light on one aspect of the conflict, and only because of the scope of a string of recent acts.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Yes people made the choice to be brutal murderers, for whatever reason - now if the community retatliates against these murders by becoming murderers themselves. The problem is that this cycle of murder is what is happening in Chechnya, with both sides guilty of being brutal murderers.

In a dirty war such as this both sides have committed acts that can be considered war crimes - Russian soldiers or paramilitaries have committed them, just as the Chechen rebels have. This particular story has only shed light on one aspect of the conflict, and only because of the scope of a string of recent acts.

Two separate events. Muslims around the world have become so disgusted with this event and have even tried to separate the two.

As for how Russia fights the terrorists, it's up to them.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Here's a news story that ads a little more background on some aspects of the conflict (mostly political) in addition to covering the backgrounds of the identified hostage takers... and they ain't Arab.

Identified hostage takers mostly Chechen: Source
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968705899037

Now with Russia's statement that they will "liquidate" terrorist training camps and terrorists were ever they may hide the following lines are important:
"Russian officials have been particularly angered by Britain's granting of asylum to Akhmed Zakayev, an envoy for Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov, and the United States' granting of asylum to Ilyas Akhmadov, who was foreign minister under Maskhadov during Chechnya's de-facto independence in the late 1990s."

It should be interesting to see what the US & UK do on the political front regarding these two... will they hand them over or continue to shelter them? If they are sheltered will Russia pursue "other means" to reach these men?