AzSU Pikes caught with topless woman, whips, welts on bare butts

[BabyP]

they probably want to look at the pictures for laughs, also their girlfriends would probably make them turn them in so the guys can say hey it wasnt me, I was forced to have sex with her and for her to whip me.......

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by thermobryan
but I think strippers isnt hazing...

I don't see where anyone has said that having a stripper is hazing. It could offend some people, even some chapter members, but that's different. We need to get past that.

What gives the "appearance" of hazing is the whipping, welts, etc. That has hazing written all over it, especially to PR conscious university administrators. Dos they really have any choice? If they don't act, the town, the parents and the Trustees are going to be all over their case. Whether it was hazing in this case or not, it has that look to it. Add to the whipping the pictures of the men on the floor in strange positions.

Somone above mentioned going to a strip club. Even that isn't going to insulate the chapter if pictures are taken and get out. There is ample evidence of chapters being charged with violations far off campus.

A lot of people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Look at some of the lawsuits from hazing. Who gets sued? The chapter officers, the chapter advisors, the national office, the university, sometimes the chapter officers parents, and anyone else the lawyer can think of.

Here is a case in point:

Associated Press
July 7, 2004

Woman's family sues university, students over death

CONCORD, N.H. -- "The family of a Plymouth State University student killed
during a suspected hazing incident last year is suing the school and
members of a sorority, accusing them of negligence in the woman's death.

Dan Duckett, lawyer for the family of Kelly Nester, said his clients are
frustrated by the lack of criminal charges filed in the case, and with the
level of cooperation with authorities by the women who were with Nester the
night she died."

Note: As I recall, this happened off campus as the women were returning from a function.

[AGDee]

If a man chose to go to a club and pay for a stripper to whip him, that is his choice.

If a man is in a group and is EXPECTED to have this experience, regardless of whether he wants to or not, that is not his choice and that is hazing. I have known men who had deeply spiritual convictions against this type of experience who would be extremely comfortable in the presence of a stripper, let alone being whipped by one. This is not every man's fantasy, although some men may enjoy it. I would consider being whipped by ANYBODY assault and, if linked to joining an organization, I would consider it hazing. I realize that I am a female, but having been married twice and having numerous male friends, I do believe that I know how some men feel.

I have a feeling that the argument will be "if they have a problem with it, they should say something or not participate". However, that's one of the biggest problems with hazing. They believe that if they say something against this that the others will see them differently and, possibly, deny them admission into their organization.

I believe that any Inter/National group would consider this hazing as would the courts, should someone complain or if they get caught (as they did).

Dee

[DeltAlum]

I don't know whether there was hazing involved in this incident or not.

I'll give the chapter the benefit of the doubt.

What some don't want to realize is that whether it was or wasn't hazing, it gives that appearance. That is enough to make universities and nationals act.

The Greek System can't stand much of this kind of publicity.

Young leaders can think that their national officers, advisors and alumni are totally out of touch. Guess what? We went through all the same stuff -- but the stakes are MUCH HIGHER now.

The days of getting a second chance in this kind of situation are pretty much gone.

If undergraduate chapter leaders don't want to understand these dynamics then they're fooling themselves.

[thermobryan]

Why have I been censored? I said nothing offensive!!!

[Tom Earp]

DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE CENSORED!

Seem to be posting alright!

Maybe a Mod on a Thread found one of your posts uncalled for!

Dont Hollar Wolf to soon!

Kappa2, you are more right than you know. Truer words have never been spoken so well.

I know DeltaAlum gets sas frustrated as many of us do who have been in our Organizations and on GreekChat.


Thermo bomb, you do not get all of the information that some of us do on here about the goings on of All Greek Organizations.

It does get very sad when We see these posts, not only about Our Organizations, but all others.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by thermobryan
Why have I been censored? I said nothing offensive!!!

I sent you a PM.

[jmuphigam]

Does being in an organization take away your right to be a consenting adult? Some people here are treating this like no one in the world would want this to happen to them, while all kinds of people are sexually into this kind of thing. To me, the fact that hazing charges have not been brought up seems to indicate that they were not 'made' to do this.

bad judgment to put it online-yes

bad publicity for the chapter, nationals and the school-yes

risk management issue-maybe

hazing-probably not

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by jmuphigam
To me, the fact that hazing charges have not been brought up seems to indicate that they were not 'made' to do this.

Isn't the jury still out on that and the investigation still ongoing?

My strong suspicion is that this is not an incident of hazing -- but it still has that appearance, given the pictures, etc.

While parts (or all) of this may have been consentual, the event when viewed as a whole -- which includes where it happened and the pictures -- was not all that bright.

[Rudey]

Would you be proud telling your mom about this? It's that simple to decide whether it's worth the risk to your fraternity. Who cares whether it's fair or not? Life isn't fair.

-Rudey
--And the fact that you took pictures of it and the fact that you got caught means that you're stupid on top of willing to risk your fraternity.

[Kevin]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

If you do some kind of dumbass stunt, take pictures of it, then post it on the internet, yes, people will judge you by it.

So maybe, just maybe you shouldn't do that?

I think that's the lesson we need to learn here.

[concerned451]

It seems to be hazing because I doubt that many, if any, guys would be willing to endure a whipping severe enough to leave cuts and welts, just for fun, you know?

Stop and imagine if the tables were turned on this, and say that it was a sorority that had done this, and had a male stripper whipping girls bare butt and leaving cuts and welts - yeah, exactly; I seriously doubt that you'd find many of the dismissive comments(it's no big deal") in this thread because everyone would agree that, yes, it is hazing, it must be hazing. Then it would definitely be considered a big deal, indicative of a double standard, indeed.

And to suggest that the real problem with this is that they were foolish enough to take pictures is completely missing the point; it shouldn't happen at all.

[James]

I agree. Stop taking incriminating photos.

Originally posted by ktsnake
I can't believe this thread is still going.

If you do some kind of dumbass stunt, take pictures of it, then post it on the internet, yes, people will judge you by it.

So maybe, just maybe you shouldn't do that?

I think that's the lesson we need to learn here.

[OrmondBeachGirl]

As a student at UF
I can say what Happen to MRS.KING ran its toll through UF...Delta Chi is not a chapter at UF as of this moment... If I am thinking right there house now belongs to ZBT... Also as a member of the Greek scene at UF... I have seen the video and I believe something happened but I do not believe she was raped.. Before anyone jumps down my throat that is just my personal thoughts on the issue... I think maybe she got scared or something I just saw the video and I don't think she was raped... If you look deep enough Delta Chi was kicked off for the Alky in there house and the drugs... Well just my thoughts...