This Is Interesting

[Wine&SilverBlue]

I am jewish, as is a large percentage of my chapter. (I think 40-50% of the freshman class this year at Wash U is jewish)

Anyway, at one of our pre-initiation nights, the new member eds mentioned that there is a part in our initiation that has us put our hand on a bible.. she said if any of us are not comfortable with that to let her know and they will not use the bible for us.. I probably would have gone along with it and not been offended (as long as they didnt have me swear my loyalty to Jesus or something) but since a bunch of my friends requested not to have the bible used for them, I did the same. I liked the fact that they warned us in advance that initiation would have religious undertones or whatnot, and I think it was very nice that they went out of their way to make sure people were comfortable.

I don't know if it's my sorority or my chapter (or my region?) but religious is not stressed at all in my chapter..

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable.

I was a very Jewish president of my Phi Mu chapter, and I never once placed my hand on a bible. See how easy that is?

Also, our open creed gives girls a pretty good idea of the fact that our ritual is based in Judeo-Christian tradition, and includes several references to god. Long before initiation, you can decide if you are comfortable with that or not. If you are not, you can omit phrases and still be a Phi Mu pledging herself to love, honor, and truth.

[Wine&SilverBlue]

"Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable."

I never said it wasn't a version of "#2"

"I was a very Jewish president of my Phi Mu chapter, and I never once placed my hand on a bible. See how easy that is?"

agreed

"Also, our open creed gives girls a pretty good idea of the fact that our ritual is based in Judeo-Christian tradition, and includes several references to god. Long before initiation, you can decide if you are comfortable with that or not. If you are not, you can omit phrases and still be a Phi Mu pledging herself to love, honor, and truth."

I honestly had no idea about the religion aspect until the week before initiation.. and I really dont have a problem with anything -- I think they handled everything wonderfully. I believe in everything Pi Beta Phi stands for, I just am not christian

[Adelphean1851]

I'm not particualrly religious, but it is plain in ADPi that religion was a big influence on our founders just by the "open" information. Our creed professes the ideal of Christian Womanhood and the 15th psalm is our offical psalm. But, maybe it was just my chapter, I never felt uncomfortable with it. A large amount of importance was never placed on religious belief, but it was explained to us that religion was very important to our founders and was therefore reflected in our traditions.
I do know some chapters are bigger on it than others, in my chapter the Chaplain pretty much just kept track of the ritual stuff but in some chapters she is also responsible for setting up bible studys and taking prayer requests

[phimuandfries]

Originally posted by DeltaBetaBaby
Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable.

I was a very Jewish president of my Phi Mu chapter, and I never once placed my hand on a bible. See how easy that is?

Also, our open creed gives girls a pretty good idea of the fact that our ritual is based in Judeo-Christian tradition, and includes several references to god. Long before initiation, you can decide if you are comfortable with that or not. If you are not, you can omit phrases and still be a Phi Mu pledging herself to love, honor, and truth.

very very cool... love honor and truth are what it is about ... thanks!

[insolita]

Originally posted by James
Kappa Sigma is very clear. Unless you profess a belief in a higher power you can't join. Pure and simple.

Which means you either have to tuly beilieve it, or at least go along with it.

I would very surpised if others groups don't pre-clear their people in the same way.

Well, guess what. Sometimes people are stupid.


I hope I'm not revealing too much here, but I'm going to come right out and say that any and all references to God/Jesus/higher power in my sorority's ritual are strictly optional. Headquarters tells chapters that we are to decide on an individual basis. They understand, and I am in full agreement with them here, that collegiate women come from all different backgrounds and religions (or lack thereof) and shouldn't feel excluded just because they don't hold the big JC to be their personal saviour.

My guess is that my chapter would be in for quite a surprise if someone busted out with a reading from the King James Bible in the middle of Initiation. No doubt half of us would have walked out. I know I would have.

Anyway, my point is that the demographic varies so broadly from chapter to chapter that it's hard to make this stuff work for everyone. I think that GLOs that aren't specifically religious in nature should work in this kind of religious option, or else really insist to each chapter that New Members be informed of the religious aspect to the ritual. It's silly and outdated to be telling people that they need to either "truly believe it, or at least go along with it", when the "it" we're talking about is stuff that was made up by a bunch of college kids in the 19th century, who were dealing with a fundamentally different demographic.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally posted by Wine&SilverBlue
"Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable."

I never said it wasn't a version of "#2"

Sorry, that is the problem with not quoting. I was referring to CC, who said that modifying the ritual was unacceptable, and then said that women were asked if they would place their hand on the bible. I was just pointing out that I consider that a modification, and it has worked very well in my chapter.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by DeltaBetaBaby
Sorry, that is the problem with not quoting. I was referring to CC, who said that modifying the ritual was unacceptable, and then said that women were asked if they would place their hand on the bible. I was just pointing out that I consider that a modification, and it has worked very well in my chapter.

You know... you are right. I hadn't really considered that a modification of the ritual, but it is. When "modification" was mentioned, I think I imagined something much more drastic.

I also agree that Phi Mu is a little different than many sororities... God is mentioned openly in the Creed and it would very difficult for new members not to know that religion is involved.

However... I am not entirely convinced that Love, Honor and Truth is what it's ALL about. I think women of all religions could be happy in Phi Mu; it makes me glad to hear that as a Jewish sister, it's worked out for you. But I can't imagine someone who was atheist or otherwise had very little belief in any type of higher being feeling comfortable in Phi Mu. Like I've stated before, I can't speak for all Phi Mus, but that's my own take on the situation.

[FSUZeta]

to clear it with their national office before modifying their rituals. the one thing in common that each chapter has with each other sister or brother chapter of their sorority/fraternity is the ritual, which most likely hasn't changed since it was written. your national officers might not be too happy to learn that ritual was being adapted or modified to fit the occasion. if your national organization encourages your to modify as need be, then go for it!

[XOMichelle]

Our open motto is "Hellenic Culture and Christian Ideals", which will clue anyone off the bat that the founders of Chi Omega were Christian, and incorperated Christianity into the fraternity. However, I believe that we should be able to incorperate students of ALL backgrounds, and if someone is uncomfortable, I would rather keep the member than the exact ritual (because, lets face it, if a few people don't put their hands on a bible, it isn't a big deal!).
When I was pldege educator, I was alwas on the lookout for students who weren't comfortable with religious parts, and I always offered them alternatives (you don't have to say the word God, you don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable, you have a choice... etc). I think that in order to really be open to members with different backgrounds we have to take these considerations into account.

[DolphinChicaDDD]

Originally posted by adpiucf
This speaks volumes about the need to prepare PNMS and new members for the ritual. It's not just a set of grips, whistles and words. It's the basic principles of the organization. Had this member been given a better indication of what to expect, he would not have chosen this org.

It blows my min how someone could NOT be aware of the ritual before hand. It has to be lack of informtation on a chapter level.

I can't speak for everyone's org, but I know we were handed a 2 page summary of generalities before hand, like: ritual is a set of stories that bind us all together; who wrote our ritual and when, how they have not changed, and importantly THAT RITUALS ARE JUST STORIES YOU ARE NOT ASKED TO BELIEVE IN THEM, just respect the stories (and although I can't find the paper) I'm 95% sure it mentioned that the ceremony had religious overtones.

I think changing the rituals is rediculous...its totally obsured. The guy obviously knew the terms and conditions that comes with the position (ie, our job descriptions also say 'particiapates in ritual' and what not) it is crazy to turn around 2 and a 1/2 years later and want something changed.

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by FSUZeta
to clear it with their national office before modifying their rituals. the one thing in common that each chapter has with each other sister or brother chapter of their sorority/fraternity is the ritual, which most likely hasn't changed since it was written. your national officers might not be too happy to learn that ritual was being adapted or modified to fit the occasion. if your national organization encourages your to modify as need be, then go for it!

Of course, there are cases when you think your national office is wrong. For instance, if a national office insisted that all initiates repeated a prayer that is very Christian, but I had Muslim or Jewish initiates, and that part would make them feel unwelcome, I would tell the national officers that they need to take another look at what effects their policies have on the fraternity, and do it my way (maybe I'd recite it so they didn't have to repeat it, or leave out the word God, or what have you). It's kind of like the situations way back when many GLO's had "white only" membership clauses. Clearly, those are wrong, and I applaud the chapters who rebelled against them, even if they no longer exist.

[Speechpath]

We only had this issue one time when I was active, one sister did not want to place her hand on the bible so she put it over her heart instead and that was the end of it. I don't think anyone is suggesting modifiying rituals so much that they stray from the original ideas they were based on, many of which were christian ideals, but some simple modifications like that one I think are acceptable and don't change the meaning of the ritual itself.

[Corsulian]

The whole religious thing is a major reason I didn't go for any of the fraternities on the GMU campus:

Kappa Alpha Order
"Kappa Alpha Order seeks to create a lifetime experience which centers on reverence to God, duty, honor..."

Kappa Sigma
"The star and crescent shall not be worn by any man but only...and above all else, one who walks in the light of God."

Phi Kappa Theta
"Fraternal, Intellectual, Social and Spiritual: these are the ideals of Phi Kap members"

Phi Sigma Kappa
"I hereby solemnly declare My Faith in the wisdom and love of God"

Pi Kappa Alpha
"...and to serve my faith, my family, my community, my alma mater, and my Fraternity"

Pi Kappa Phi
(actually their creed suited me just fine--but I was told the ritual probably has religious stuff in it as they are southern-founded)

Sigma Phi Epsilon
"This fraternity will be different, it will be based on the love of God and the principle of peace through brotherhood."

Sigma Chi
(God isn't really mentioned in the creed...but their symbol is a cross...c'mon)

Tau Kappa Epsilon
"To Believe in love and loyalty to my College, my Fraternity, my Country, and my God"

Theta Chi
"in the usefulness of my Fraternity, in it's influence and it's accomplishments and I shall do all in my power to perpetuate it's ideals, thereby serving my God, my country and my fellow-man."



But yeah--don't have to look too hard to find religious references in many organizations. If you don't believe in the creed, then don't join something which lasts for life.

[TN-TX ADPi]

I'm going to agree with most people here-- this guy is a complete and total idiot. How can you be in an organization for 2.5 years and not know that religion was a part of your ritual? C'mon- this guy is out for attention, maybe a little money, and to take the focus off of himself for not doing his job. I'm sure most GLO's make it known (either by speaking it outright to PNM's or it is printed in websites, etc. about that org.) that they were founded on religious beliefs. To quote a small part of our (ADPi) beautiful creed--

I BELIEVE in Alpha Delta Pi. I BELIEVE that my sorority is more than a ritual or a symbol; that it is a way of life. I BELIEVE that the principles established by our founders in 1851 are enduring attributes, exemplifying the highest ideals of Christian womanhood.

In addition, our Psalm is the 15th Psalm of the Old Testament of the Bible. That is open information. We also talk about the founder's ideals and beliefs during recruitment.

This guy is just stupid-