wow.....

[xo_kathy]

What I don't get about the whole thing is this-

1. You didn't get proper isntruction and you thought what you were doing (the box standing, nakedness, humiliation, etc) was ok

2. Maybe you felt it really was wrong, but you didn't go to a higher officer because you knew your fellow soldiers could make life very unpleasent for you

3. You took pictures because you felt that showed you weren't doing anything more than you were told

OK, I can sort of buy any of the above. BUT! What is with picture of that girl mugging in front of the guys like she's on vacation with Mickey Mouse?!?! How is that ok to her or anyone else? How did that help to break the prisoners? They couldn't even see her - they were blindfolded!? I don't know, I just don't get it....

[RACooper]

I'm wondering what else will be coming out.... picture and video wise (as Rummy mentioned there was a lot more).

What I also have to wonder how some of these soldier's family members thought that these actions were either justified or blown out of proportion (i'm sure you've all seen some interviews).

However what I find most appalling (or sad) is the continuing noise made about the lack of training or intsruction... for the whole Brigade not to understand the basics of what was required of them is pathetic. I have participated in numerous exercises with both the Canadian and American armed forces, as both a "prisoner" and a guard; these were excercises held almost annually, and served to drive home the standards and practices required of soldiers (reservist and regulars).

[James]

its a face saving argument. If they can say they were trained to do this and were just following oders than it becomes legitimate. If they can claim that they had no training on handling prisoners and shouldn't have been there . . . well its been used before as a legal argument.

One of the way the police involved in Rodney King got away was that they claimed they were following the training that LAPD has for situations like that.

Sometimes in our country we believe that training somewhow supersedes common sense. Or else common sense can't exist without training.

What we have to consider is whether this is just the way we ntend to handle things unofficially and whether that it s bad thing.

Originally posted by RACooper


However what I find most appalling (or sad) is the continuing noise made about the lack of training or intsruction... for the whole Brigade not to understand the basics of what was required of them is pathetic. I have participated in numerous exercises with both the Canadian and American armed forces, as both a "prisoner" and a guard; these were excercises held almost annually, and served to drive home the standards and practices required of soldiers (reservist and regulars).

[ajuhdg]

I have to agree with you, RAC. My husband is an MP, and we talked about this last night when he called. They had very extensive EPW training...as a matter of fact...I have a manual here on my desk! He was not involved in any of this drama, BTW.

I'm by no means a 'political' person, but what exactly would Rumsfeld resiging accomplish? It just doesn make sense how his leaving would magically make everything better.

aj

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
BUT! What is with picture of that girl mugging in front of the guys like she's on vacation with Mickey Mouse?!?! How is that ok to her or anyone else? How did that help to break the prisoners? They couldn't even see her - they were blindfolded!? I don't know, I just don't get it....

There was an article about her yesterday in the New York Times...she's 21 and from WV, and joined the service as a way to get out of her nowhere town. Her family insists that the pictures were staged and there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER their sweet little angel could EVER do such a thing...she's back in the States now, and pregnant with the child of the US soldier she's posing with.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
OK, I can sort of buy any of the above. BUT! What is with picture of that girl mugging in front of the guys like she's on vacation with Mickey Mouse?!?! How is that ok to her or anyone else? How did that help to break the prisoners? They couldn't even see her - they were blindfolded!? I don't know, I just don't get it....

I have seen people trying to rationalize or explain her actions as a person in the wrong place at the wrong time, or someone who was mislead by orders from superiors.... but both are frankly bullshit... one she was NOT part of the staff responsible for guarding or moving the prisoners, she was infact a clerk resposible for processing the prison's paperwork.... two she actually had no right to be in the prison during the night shift visiting her boyfriend. So she put her self in the wrong place at the wrong time, she chose to contravine stand orders and procedures by visiting the prison wing...

[enlightenment06]

Originally posted by ajuhdg
I have to agree with you, RAC. My husband is an MP, and we talked about this last night when he called. They had very extensive EPW training...as a matter of fact...I have a manual here on my desk! He was not involved in any of this drama, BTW.

I'm by no means a 'political' person, but what exactly would Rumsfeld resiging accomplish? It just doesn make sense how his leaving would magically make everything better.

aj

it would show(politically) that the United States does not condone nor support such conduct; in addition it would show that the administration has some accountability (which it doesn't).

to put it in non-politcal terms: those photos have extremely angered people around the world, especially in the Middle East. The actions of those officers and the subsequent exposure of the matter have embarrassed our country, put us all in more danger, and have greatly increased the risks for our military. Rumsfeld resigning might help. Even he said himself in his testimony that he being removed from his position would send a positive message to the world, that we mean business on human rights. [I'm listening to the testimony now on C-SPAN but I don't have the exact quote.]

[James]

I talked to a retired military guy about this the other day . . .

What he was saying was this stuff was probably ordered. And in some ways may be business as usual.

He wasn't against it, he was just really incenced that pictures got out. He can't imagine how that would have happened.

But here is his logic: Prisoners need to be interrogated. We need to know their information. War is not a pleasant thing, its not a mental excercise.

Yes its not Official US policy to torture prisoners for information, but the information has to be gotten regardless. So alot of things happen unofficially.

He pointed out that it was the pictures that made everyone go nuts when in fact an investigation had been announced about this in January, but everyone ignored it.

So you have a situation where the CIA or Military Intellegence comes in and takes over interrogation, under cutting the One-Star General in charge.

As far as the role of the woman goes, she may very well have been used because she is female, as part of breaking the Iraqi's down through humiliation.

But, probably everyone will get nailed except for the intellegence operatives because no one will really be sure who they are lol.

[starang21]

Originally posted by James
I talked to a retired military guy about this the other day . . .

What he was saying was this stuff was probably ordered. And in some ways may be business as usual.

He wasn't against it, he was just really incenced that pictures got out. He can't imagine how that would have happened.

But here is his logic: Prisoners need to be interrogated. We need to know their information. War is not a pleasant thing, its not a mental excercise.

Yes its not Official US policy to torture prisoners for information, but the information has to be gotten regardless. So alot of things happen unofficially.

He pointed out that it was the pictures that made everyone go nuts when in fact an investigation had been announced about this in January, but everyone ignored it.

So you have a situation where the CIA or Military Intellegence comes in and takes over interrogation, under cutting the One-Star General in charge.

As far as the role of the woman goes, she may very well have been used because she is female, as part of breaking the Iraqi's down through humiliation.

But, probably everyone will get nailed except for the intellegence operatives because no one will really be sure who they are lol.

a co-worker said the same thing, but i don't view gang raping a woman falls under interrogation practices.