Bush ads upset 9/11 families

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
My boyfriend's mother was killed by a car while she stood on a corner waiting for the light in the Bronx. While it was not a terrorist, it was no less sudden or unexpected. Nor are his feelings of loss any less. And as he says all the time "My mother died on that corner and I don't go petitioning that a garbage can or a mail box shouldn't be put there because it's sacred ground".

That corner is not your boyfriend's mother's final resting place. There is only one site in Ameican history, on American soil, that was both the object of a terrorist attack, and the final resting place of victims. That is the World Trade Center site, and it should be treated with the same respect as that afforded to Pearl Harbor.

[breathesgelatin]

Bleh. I don't like either candidate in this race.

Debates like this show what little substantial meaning political races have nowadays.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I haven't seen any ads so I can't judge them.

KillarneyRose, I think that you are mistaken about the first attack on the WTC in 1993. I think that the victims' families have been able to add their names to the list of people considered for financial compensation for their losses.

I find that, as a group, the families of the 9/11 victims are whiney and annoying.

I wonder why you think that. Have you seen or read specific news accounts that resulted in this feeling? I'm not flaming you, but I am curious. I haven't seen anyone whining in any of the news accounts that I have seen. I have seen many people expressing their grief and voicing their concerns which seem legitimate to me. There were nearly 3,000 victims so I am sure that there are many different news stories that I haven't seen.


This is probably another topic, but I find it kind of interesting that people rarely mention the deaths in Pennsylvania and at the Pentagon on Sept. 11th.

[xo_kathy]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
That corner is not your boyfriend's mother's final resting place. There is only one site in Ameican history, on American soil, that was both the object of a terrorist attack, and the final resting place of victims. That is the World Trade Center site, and it should be treated with the same respect as that afforded to Pearl Harbor.

You are absolutely right, Russell. However, Ground Zero is not the final resting place of all the people killed. And it's a huge plot of land that is badly in need of re-building to make this city what it once was. You're a NYer, you know that. And what about many of the Native American burial grounds that we have plowed over. That's ok b/c they weren't killed be terrorists (unless you consider us Europeans coming over here and taking over their lands a terrorist act - but that's a whole different thread!!!) or because the bodies were removed it's ok? Respect needed, absolutely! Walking on eggshells - no, sorry.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
You are absolutely right, Russell. However, Ground Zero is not the final resting place of all the people killed. And it's a huge plot of land that is badly in need of re-building to make this city what it once was. You're a NYer, you know that. And what about many of the Native American burial grounds that we have plowed over. That's ok b/c they weren't killed be terrorists (unless you consider us Europeans coming over here and taking over their lands a terrorist act - but that's a whole different thread!!!) or because the bodies were removed it's ok? Respect needed, absolutely! Walking on eggshells - no, sorry.

There is a difference between motives and history and I don't think you understand that.

Yes that would be an incredibly expensive area to just make into a memorial but at the same time, building there will NOT make this city into what it once was. People say that blindly. What was this city and what will that building bring?

And KillarneyRose, I only have a gripe to pick with certain firemen who chose to work overtime which boosted up their pensions incredibly at the site and then retired.

-Rudey

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
You are absolutely right, Russell. However, Ground Zero is not the final resting place of all the people killed. And it's a huge plot of land that is badly in need of re-building to make this city what it once was. You're a NYer, you know that. And what about many of the Native American burial grounds that we have plowed over. That's ok b/c they weren't killed be terrorists (unless you consider us Europeans coming over here and taking over their lands a terrorist act - but that's a whole different thread!!!) or because the bodies were removed it's ok? Respect needed, absolutely! Walking on eggshells - no, sorry.

It doesn't matter if its not the final resting place of all who died there because it is still the final resting place of almost a thousand. Doing the wrong thing with Native American burial grounds 100 years ago has nothing to do with doing the right thing at Ground Zero today.

[sugar and spice]

Personally I wouldn't offended by the ads, but I reacted to 9/11 differently than a lot of the population. And I can still see how those related to the victims would be upset with a shot of someone's dead body being taken away on a stretcher.

What I don't understand is why nobody who put out these ads questioned whether or not they would upset people. To me it seems like a huge red flag and they should have definitely questioned whether or not the footage was appropriate.

Also, despite the fact that "9/11 belongs to all Americans," you certainly experienced it a little differently if you were waiting by the phone for hours to see if your dad died in the attacks than if you sat vegging on the couch for days watching footage of the towers falling and candlelight vigils. Please don't try to argue differently because you just sound ignorant.

As for the protesters -- if those who were offended were Democrats, Bush doesn't have to worry because they wouldn't have voted for him anyway.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Also, despite the fact that "9/11 belongs to all Americans," you certainly experienced it a little differently if you were waiting by the phone for hours to see if your dad died in the attacks than if you sat vegging on the couch for days watching footage of the towers falling and candlelight vigils. Please don't try to argue differently because you just sound ignorant.

It does belong to ALL of us.

My dad's family is from Long Island. I have an Aunt that works a stone's throw from the WTC. I was certainly worried for her. BOTH of my parents at the time were Active Duty military officers stationed in a city with one of the largest military populations in the country, San Antonio. My dad's previous duty station was in fact, the Pentagon. Some of the military personal killed were MSC officers that worked the same office my father did. Its pretty damn traumatic to turn on the TV and see a building who's hallways you walked in a bunch to go see your dad at work blown apart. In the midst of my biggest adversarily feelings towards my father ever, i still almost cried when i called him on the phone to make sure he was ok. Because after that happened, military personnel all over the country were on High Alert.

A lot of us that don't live there, or are not from NYC have connections to people that were in the attacks or that were nearby the attacks. The terrorists were not targeting your father specifically, but Americans in general. Therefore, this was an attack on ALL Americans, not just those in NY. I don't think Osama was sittin in his cave, after his latest amorous romp with a dromedary, thinking, "i'm really pissed off at those New Yorkers, their city is dirty and their smug self-satisfaction at being from the Big Apple. I'm gonna attack them."

I think it sounds ignorant to try to tell Americans as a whole that 9-11 doesn't belong to them, just to the 3,000 or so who lost their lives and their families.

Kitso
KS 361

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
It does belong to ALL of us.

My dad's family is from Long Island. I have an Aunt that works a stone's throw from the WTC. I was certainly worried for her. BOTH of my parents at the time were Active Duty military officers stationed in a city with one of the largest military populations in the country, San Antonio. My dad's previous duty station was in fact, the Pentagon. Some of the military personal killed were MSC officers that worked the same office my father did. Its pretty damn traumatic to turn on the TV and see a building who's hallways you walked in a bunch to go see your dad at work blown apart. In the midst of my biggest adversarily feelings towards my father ever, i still almost cried when i called him on the phone to make sure he was ok. Because after that happened, military personnel all over the country were on High Alert.

A lot of us that don't live there, or are not from NYC have connections to people that were in the attacks or that were nearby the attacks. The terrorists were not targeting your father specifically, but Americans in general. Therefore, this was an attack on ALL Americans, not just those in NY. I don't think Osama was sittin in his cave, after his latest amorous romp with a dromedary, thinking, "i'm really pissed off at those New Yorkers, their city is dirty and their smug self-satisfaction at being from the Big Apple. I'm gonna attack them."

I think it sounds ignorant to try to tell Americans as a whole that 9-11 doesn't belong to them, just to the 3,000 or so who lost their lives and their families.

Kitso
KS 361

I'm sorry, but I think this is bullshit.

Yes, 9/11 was an attack on all-Americans.

However, if you didn't lose someone you loved in the attacks you DID NOT experience it the same way as someone who did. Ditto for someone who lost an acquaintance versus someone who lost a spouse of 25 years -- there are degrees of loss.

Your little ode to how you walked the halls of the Pentagon and thus that affected you only reinforces that point. Obviously New Yorkers were deeply affected by this because this was their HOME. Almost everyone I know in New York knew someone who died. There is a huge difference between seeing a part of the city you call your home being torn to pieces, having lived through that day in New York city, having to look at the altered skyline everyday, and going to funerals day after day vs. watching the news of a national tragedy on TV.

Imagine if this was your home, your friends that died, and the rest of the country trying to pretend that they were just as deeply affected by it as you were. (On an ideological level, sure. On an emotional level, no way in hell.) You'd be pissed off too.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I'm sorry, but I think this is bullshit.

Yes, 9/11 was an attack on all-Americans.

However, if you didn't lose someone you loved in the attacks you DID NOT experience it the same way as someone who did. Ditto for someone who lost an acquaintance versus someone who lost a spouse of 25 years -- there are degrees of loss.

Your little ode to how you walked the halls of the Pentagon and thus that affected you only reinforces that point. Obviously New Yorkers were deeply affected by this because this was their HOME. Almost everyone I know in New York knew someone who died. There is a huge difference between seeing a part of the city you call your home being torn to pieces, having lived through that day in New York city, having to look at the altered skyline everyday, and going to funerals day after day vs. watching the news of a national tragedy on TV.

Imagine if this was your home, your friends that died, and the rest of the country trying to pretend that they were just as deeply affected by it as you were. (On an ideological level, sure. On an emotional level, no way in hell.) You'd be pissed off too.

Nowhere, in my post, did i say that it affected me as deeply as someone who lost a family member. What i did say is that lots of us felt connections to 9-11 and you have no right to tell us that it didnt' affect us at all. I didn't experience it AS MUCH as someone who lost a family member, but it still affrected me.

But it still belongs to ALL Americans. Whether the impact on that person is minimal or extreme, it belongs to us all. New Yorkers or those that lost family members can't claim sole ownership to the tragedy.

I'm not angry that NY was attacked. I'm angry that AMERICA was attacked. Yes, if they bombed Texas A&M or the Alamo, or downtown Dallas, that would affect me more personally than the WTC, but they would be attacking AMERICA. I would expect you or anyone else to be as equally pissed as me, if not because you knew somebody that died, but the fact that 3000 of your fellow AMERICANS died.

When Bonfire fell at A&M in 99 and we lost 12 Aggies, the outpouring of support from across the country was certainly welcome. When a NW university dismantled their Ice Arch in tribute to our Fallen Aggies, i wasn't pissed that they were trying to horn in on our suffering, i was grateful that they were empathizing with our loss. When our bitter rivals, the longhorns cancelled their Hex Rally and instead had a Unity Rally in Austin and invited us to attend, i wasn't pissed that they were trying to claim our tragedy too. They were saddened by the loss of fellow young people and Texans. If anything, that single incident brought Aggies and Longhorns closer and defined our rivalry more.

ETA: So it pissed you off when all of America was wearing I <3 NY shirts? By being standoffish about this, and claiming that its YOUR tragedy over everyone elses you are perpetuating the attitude of NYers that most of the rest of the Country doens't like. We were able to put our Texan egos aside after Bonfire.

Like i said, its pretty damn naive of you, or anyone, to tell an American that they can't claim any part of 9-11.

Kitso
KS 361

[The1calledTKE]

[PM_Mama00]

Ummm... nice?

ETA: I think Omarosa is really Osama in drag.

[Kevin]

I really think that these 9-11 families are being coddled WAY too much.

Here in Oklahoma City we had a similar tragedy. Not on nearly the same scale, but this is Oklahoma City. It couldn't be on the same scale.

Was there federal assistance for victims? Not anywhere even remotely close to these 9-11 people.

I really think the whole thing is a joke. Hallowed ground? I thought they should have rebuilt the Federal Building here in OKC rather than that memorial downtown. Of course, I think that was done mainly to bring in tourism (which it has).

I think this sesnsativity/walking on eggshells is getting a little ridiculous. What the President does to react to an attack of that magnitude when representing the millions of American citizens is of far greater consequence than the tragedy and loss of life. I, and many Americans think that Bush has done an admirable job.

[xo_kathy]

Originally posted by Rudey
There is a difference between motives and history and I don't think you understand that.

Yes that would be an incredibly expensive area to just make into a memorial but at the same time, building there will NOT make this city into what it once was. People say that blindly. What was this city and what will that building bring?
-Rudey

Thank you for calling me stupid in such a polite way, Rudey!

Seriously, I think we actually agree (sort of) about the building itself. I'm not a fan of "rebuild the towers bigger and better". That's just stupid. They were there, a tragedy happened, they are there no longer - nothing is going to change that or bring things back to the way they were. But we do need to add hotel space, living space, office space etc in that gaping hole that will bring money to that area. Tourists go down there all the time, stare at the hole, then hop the train back uptown to eat dinner and sleep at their hotels.

I really just disagree with the people (mostly victim families) who play up the "resting place" issue in an effort to keep the whole area as is. I mean, would they have preferred we never clean it up because there were human remains on the rubble? At this point, most of the actual resting place is gone anyway. Most people/remains weren't found at the underground level they have finally cleared it down to, right?

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by ktsnake
I really think that these 9-11 families are being coddled WAY too much.

Here in Oklahoma City we had a similar tragedy. Not on nearly the same scale, but this is Oklahoma City. It couldn't be on the same scale.

Was there federal assistance for victims? Not anywhere even remotely close to these 9-11 people.

I really think the whole thing is a joke. Hallowed ground? I thought they should have rebuilt the Federal Building here in OKC rather than that memorial downtown. Of course, I think that was done mainly to bring in tourism (which it has).

I think this sesnsativity/walking on eggshells is getting a little ridiculous. What the President does to react to an attack of that magnitude when representing the millions of American citizens is of far greater consequence than the tragedy and loss of life. I, and many Americans think that Bush has done an admirable job.

Its not just about the scale. The WTC is the final resting place for several hundred innocent victims. Part of that site, but not all of it, is being treated as such.

There will be no buildings on the footprint of the twin towers. There is controversy about site infrastructure that lies below, and that is one area of compromise where function won over sentiment. The WTC site is huge, by Manhattan standards, so there is enough space to preserve the footprint of the twin towers, and still replace every square foot of lost commercial space in a way that is dignified and architectually compelling.

There are other reasons why the WTC site received more attention than the bombing in Oklahoma City. The fires at the WTC site burned, at about 1,000º, for about 4 months. It lasted long enough for then Mayor Giuliani to get the majority of the members of Congress to visit the site while it looked, smelled, and tasted like hell on earth. Don't underestimate that visceral experience. Many national, and world leaders commented that they didn't understand the horror of what happened until they visited the site while it was still burning.

Also, the Oklahoma City tragedy did not have the constituency that the WTC site did. Just about every state lost someone. And many of the people who did die, or who are relatives of friends of those who did, are very rich and very powerful.

The media coverage was also very different. New York is the media capital of the entire world. The resources to fully cover the event was in place. Every prominent journalist knew someone who suffered as a result.

A final difference was that the WTC attack was done by foreigners, who declared war against America. As we figured out what happend after 9-11, we realized that there is much more behind the 19 hijackers. What happened in Oklahoma City was a domestic tragedy, without a network that was willing, and able to execute similar tragedies.

So besides the scale, there are the differences that one place is a final resting place for many, congressional sympathy, congressional influence, media influence, and a newly recognized threat (to the public) that is ongoing.

If New York's influence does not seem fair, the consider this. All nations need a financial center, a business center, as well as a media center. New York is all these, and more. Also, New York happens to be the global center of these things too, and that brings benefit to all of America. 9-11 wasn't an attack on a place. It was a symbolic atempt at the decapitation of America. That means that wherever this place should be, it will have the resources to lobby for extra aid.

But there is one more thing that, in my opinion, makes New York worthy of every bit of Federal assistance. New York, for many decades, has given far more money to the Federal government than we have received in return. We have a greater disparity than most, if not all, other states. This disparity has existed to help fund the development of poorer parts of the country, and we never complained. The money that federal government receives is also to pay for national security. The WTC was bombed in 1993 by Al Qaeda. The Federal government had over 8 years to plan, and prevent, and did not do their job. The US government failed us. The least that they can do is help us rebuild.