Redskins = Racism

[mu_agd]

kitso -

i understand your concern about native american rights. however, i don't understand how you can take a relationship that is almost 200 years old, between two groups of people that have worked together constantly for almost 200 years and compare it to tribes that were killed and exploited. that didn't happen in this relationship. stated numerous times by me and by DeltAlum, Miami University and the Miami Indian Tribe CHOSE this name together, a name which the school no longer uses because of people like you that were offended by it. therefore, i don't see how you can pretty much attack the school for something that no longer exists, the nickname. however, the relationship with the Miami Indians is still going strong. do you take offense to that too? is that a problem for you? the Miami Indian did not complain about having to move, they were very willing to move. the ties between the two groups are incredibly strong. the university hosts the Indian Chief and other members of the tribe at the school every single year. the Tribe hosts faculty and students of Miami University every single year. there are exchange programs constantly happening. there is incredible history between the two groups that will never change.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
ok then.

translate that to GeekyPenguin too. i apparantly am typing in some foreign conservative language I never said i saw a problem with the use of tribal names, what i have a problem with is the perpetuated negative stereotype of Redskins and NA's as violent and savage people.

I'll go so far as to say, the term braves and warriors aren't offensive in themselves, however, if in naming a team that leads to mocking of tradition, culture, symbols, etc, THAT's something that needs to be dealt with.

Kitso
KS 361

We never used tribal names. I have nooo clue where that came from. The names given to the areas surrounding my hometown were names given to them by the tribes which were there, but are not named after the tribes.

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Which is a very long way of saying that the campaigns to which I think Kitso refers were still several decades in the future at that time.

Thanks DA.

I will admit, my knowledge of eastern tribes is less extensive than my knowledge of the Lakota peoples.

The treaties signed by the Lakotas were signed in the late 1860's-1870's, with the fateful Battle of Little Big Horn being fought in 1876, the year of the founding of my alma mater as well(and also the founding of budweiser, so, kinda a good year for Kitso all around)

My experience with tribal-government relations has therefore been shaped by the experiences of a war-weary people, who signed treaties and were then slaughtered in camps at Wounded Knee, and are still today fighting for the allowances given to them in those treaties.

Kitso
KS 361

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
Disclaimer: All racial terms in this post are being used in a discussionary manner, and are not directed towards any persons

Ok, so i've been thinking about this a lot.

I think we would all agree that if a team or school chose the name "Darkies", "Coloreds" or "N-words" for a team mascot that it would be EXTREMELY offensive and there would be an enormous uproar in this country. I'm sure the ACLU and Jesse Jackson and his cronies would be all over it.

So, why is it that the term "Redskins" isn't given a passing thought? Native American groups have been protesting the use of native-themed mascots for years and the Redskins in particular for at least a decade, yet the so called advocates for equality haven't rallied to their side. When the issue did go to district court, it was ruled that the Redskins could keep their name, because the protesting groups waited too long to challenge it. (the team being named in 1967). Does that make it right? I guarantee that if we had the SF "Slopes" that had been formed back then their name wouldn't have survived the case.

To many NA's this name is the utmost of offensive. It refers to a time when NA's were considered less than human and trappers were paid for their scalps in the same vein as beaver and bear pelts.

Y'all know that i'm not a hippie liberal by any stretch of the imagination, but this is something that i truly think is wrong and needs to be changed.

Kitso
KS 361

Who said that team mascots and those terms aren't given passing thoughts?

Jesse Jackson and the like HAVE (a long time ago) given this a "passing thought." Many, particularly racial and ethnic minorities, have warned one another against acknowledging certain team mascots and terms. Unfortunately, people (including minorities) still acknowledge them.

If the Native American community was a more visible force and collectively expressed discontent, consistently moving toward getting such terms and images abolished, there may be change. But, since the Native American community is relatively small, other groups must combine forces for this type of massive social change. This has yet to happen to a degree of consistency and influence.

The things your post has pointed to are nothing new and are taught in many courses dealing with Race and Ethnic Relations. It's important that you raised these issues, though.

The general consensus among Americans is that "these are just sports teams, no harm done," "Native Americans aren't angry, we're honoring their heritage," "If THEY were really mad...where are the protests?" and my favorite..."Well, my FRIEND (one person) is Native American and SHE sees nothing wrong (as if ONE person speaks for MANY)."

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
We never used tribal names. I have nooo clue where that came from. The names given to the areas surrounding my hometown were names given to them by the tribes which were there, but are not named after the tribes.

so they were named BY the tribes? so they are then, the tribal names for the areas? that is what i meant by tribal names.

mu_agd:

That's fine that your school has a pleasent symbiotic relationship with the Miami tribe. That is not the case in other parts of the country. My issue from the start was the use of negative stereotypes such as the term Redskins. You can't convince me, or others, that it's ok to use that term. Just because some AfAms use the N-word to refer to each other doesn't mean that i'd ever use it. I'm sure there are other AfAms that are totally offended by that world and never use it either.

Kitso
KS 361

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by mu_agd
well, the founders of Miami and the Miami Indian Tribe came up with that together. There is a whole written document signed by them in which the Miami Indians gave there permission and support to use that. The symbol and the name had been used to signify the ties that the school had with the tribe. To this day Miami University and the Miami Indian Tribe are very close with exchange programs happening all the time.

That relationship between sports team and Native American group is rare.

Nevertheless, we have to look at the impact that such limited portrayals of racial and ethnic minorities, in this instance Native Americans, has on America.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
That's fine that your school has a pleasent symbiotic relationship with the Miami tribe. That is not the case in other parts of the country. My issue from the start was the use of negative stereotypes such as the term Redskins. You can't convince me, or others, that it's ok to use that term. Just because some AfAms use the N-word to refer to each other doesn't mean that i'd ever use it. I'm sure there are other AfAms that are totally offended by that world and never use it either.

Kitso
KS 361

I agree 100% and I'm glad you started this dialogue.

I'm also glad this dialogue is informative.

[mu_agd]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
mu_agd:

That's fine that your school has a pleasent symbiotic relationship with the Miami tribe. That is not the case in other parts of the country. My issue from the start was the use of negative stereotypes such as the term Redskins. You can't convince me, or others, that it's ok to use that term. Just because some AfAms use the N-word to refer to each other doesn't mean that i'd ever use it. I'm sure there are other AfAms that are totally offended by that world and never use it either.

Kitso
KS 361

i never tried to convince you. i tried to give you background information on why Miami originally had used Redskins and did so up until the middle of the 90's when they changed it to the Redhawks. which you then basically went on to say the founders of the school killed and exploited the tribe. it seemed like you were taking this one situation and lumping it in with every other situation, while i was trying to explain how it was different. i was trying to make you see that in a way, Miami's use of the nickname Redskins was different than other schools and teams used terms that are generally associated with Native Americans.

Originally posted by ChaosDST
If the Native American community was a more visible force and collectively expressed discontent, consistently moving toward getting such terms and images abolished, there may be change. But, since the Native American community is relatively small, other groups must combine forces for this type of massive social change. This has yet to happen to a degree of consistency and influence.


The general consensus among Americans is that "these are just sports teams, no harm done," "Native Americans aren't angry, we're honoring their heritage," "If THEY were really mad...where are the protests?" and my favorite..."Well, my FRIEND (one person) is Native American and SHE sees nothing wrong (as if ONE person speaks for MANY)."

i agree with you on both of these statements. Although i disagree with Rev. Jackson on some issues, i think that he is an extremely effective leader for the AfAm community.

The thing that the NA community lacks the most are these charismatic, high-profile leaders. We have our share of leaders, but none as highly visible as Rev. Jackson.

Kitso
KS 361

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
i agree with you on both of these statements. Although i disagree with Rev. Jackson on some issues, i think that he is an extremely effective leader for the AfAm community.

The thing that the NA community lacks the most are these charismatic, high-profile leaders. We have our share of leaders, but none as highly visible as Rev. Jackson.

Kitso
KS 361

Correction:

Jesse Jackson is not a leader for the African American community. The media gave him that title. Rev. Jesse Jackson has been a strong component of the continuing civil rights struggles. He's one of the many American leaders who often speaks from the African American perspective.

However, he's not a "leader for the African American community," just as there is no ONE leader who is the "leader for the white community."

So, with that said, I hope I am not speaking "out-of-turn" when I say:
The Native American community DOES have a group of influential people with the ability to organize some movement. This IS occurring in the Native American community, but it remains on a smaller scale. I have seen where the Native American community is extremely fragmented based on affiliation. Affiliation aside, gathering forces will allow the Native American community to create bonds with other minority communities (the average African American, in particular, has STRONG Native American ancestry). Without "unions," movements are impossible.

Originally posted by ChaosDST
Correction:


However, he's not a "leader for the African American community," just as there is no ONE leader who is the "leader for the white community."

you are correct. I should have said, a leader amongst, or from the African American community. i didn't mean to imply that he was the only leader, just that he is one leader for the community, there are numerous others.

Kitso
KS 361

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
you are correct. I should have said, a leader amongst, or from the African American community. i didn't mean to imply that he was the only leader, just that he is one leader for the community, there are numerous others.

Kitso
KS 361

No, it's not you. I understood what you meant.

It's a common sentiment that Jesse Jackson is THE leader for the black community. I was using you to make my general point

[aurora_borealis]

So this is what we have so far
- Miami University and the relationship and agreement with the Miami Tribe/Nation is the exception, and NOT the rule.

- RedSkins is offensive because it is a slur that is a stereotype (and PERHAPS Indians has been changed as it isn't correct anymore as that desribes people from India, and in the US Native American is the common and accepted term?)

And GP, at least it is "the Fighting Irish" and not "The Ticked Micks", I bet you'd like that better

My favorite mascot forever will be Guilford College's Fighting Quakers. I'd like to see them take on Pacific Lutherans Lutes. The battle between the people who had a German monk riling up Rome, and the people in the black hats fleeing to the New World.

It's ON!!!!

P.S. Kitso Augsburg College in Minneapolis was founded before A&M they use maroon and go by the Auggies. Good thing we're peaceful folks and didn't come down to College Station and try and discuss it over coffee (I am just teasing ya it is a term for a baby eagle, which they use as a mascot).

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
So this is what we have so far
- Miami University and the relationship and agreement with the Miami Tribe/Nation is the exception, and NOT the rule.

- RedSkins is offensive because it is a slur that is a stereotype (and PERHAPS Indians has been changed as it isn't correct anymore as that desribes people from India, and in the US Native American is the common and accepted term?)

And GP, at least it is "the Fighting Irish" and not "The Ticked Micks", I bet you'd like that better

My favorite mascot forever will be Guilford College's Fighting Quakers. I'd like to see them take on Pacific Lutherans Lutes. The battle between the people who had a German monk riling up Rome, and the people in the black hats fleeing to the New World.

It's ON!!!!

P.S. Kitso Augsburg College in Minneapolis was founded before A&M they use maroon and go by the Auggies. Good thing we're peaceful folks and didn't come down to College Station and try and discuss it over coffee (I am just teasing ya it is a term for a baby eagle, which they use as a mascot).

Are you providing a summary or attempting to make a sarcastic point?

It's hard to tell with GCers these days......

[aabby757]

As a current and native Washingtonian who ADORES and loves the Redskins, if they changed the name I would suport it. I completely understand how Native American's are offended by it.

However, I also feel angel food cake and devil food cake and a million other terms should be changed.

Angel food cake is white
Devil's food cake is dark.

I too am not some out there hippie but I do think there are legitimate arguments in "his"tory and things like that.

Clinical trials being performed on men when ONLY women would take the drug, etc.

It goes on forever.