"Christian" Org's vs. GLO's

[adduncan]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
The issue people have with Roman Catholicism is that it isn't Biblical. I don't mean to offend Catholics because most are only doing what they've been taught. And many Catholics are taught not to read the Bible for themselves.

(snipped for brevity)

Wrong thing to say, dear.

In addition to your opening statement being false (Catholics DO read the Bible and a Biblical reference can be included in whatever doctrine you care to name) if you have to open a post with "I don't mean to offend....." you're GOING to offend.

You got your wrist slapped with the statistical/numerology article, learn from that experience.

No one appreciates genuine faithful zeal more than I do but you're creating enemies where you don't need to.

No further doctrinal discussion will come from me on this thread. Ya wanna discuss? Take it to private email.

</hijak>

[GeekyPenguin]

BobraFCD, I'm curious as to what possesses you to think Catholicism isn't Biblically based. You read one article by one disgruntled priest and that's enough for you?

Your post was offensive to me and I'm a very relaxed Catholic. Please think about who could be reading your posts.

[BobraFCD]

I'd be happy to give you a list of non-Biblical RomanCatholic doctrine instituted by man (read the Catholic Encyclopedia -it's where I got it from):

Infant baptism (circa 300 AD by RCC)
Prayers for the dead (implemented in 300 AD by the RCC)
Worship of saints (implemented in 375 AD by RCC)
Mass instituted (394 AD)
Worship of Mary (431 AD)
Priests dressing differently from laymen (500 AD)
Extreme unction (last rites) (526 AD)
Doctrine of purgatory (593 AD)
Prayers conducted to Mary (600 AD)
Worship of images and relics (786 AD)
Celibacy of Priests (1079 AD)
Rosary (1090 AD)
Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible (1545 AD)
Infallibility of the Pope declared (1870 AD)
Mary proclaimed the "Mother of the Church" (1965 AD)

Keep in mind this ROMAN Catholicism I'm talking about and I did
not take the "word of one disgruntled priest". I've studied the Bible, Hebrew, Greek, and history for the past 3 years.


I'm not picking a fight here--just giving some facts as to why many Christians have trouble with Catholicism--much of its roots is pagan worship--the Catholic Encyclopedia admits it! By the way--I don't think that those who follow Catholicism are bad people by any means. I'm not trying to offend anyone but facts are facts. As I mentioned, no church is perfect, but the Bible instructs us not to add or take away from the Word....


But the beautiful thing about America is that we can worship the way we want to.

[Munchkin03]

I'm a godless, feminist, race-mixing, fornicating heathen, and even I know that Roman Catholicism is based on Biblical doctrines and Jack Chick tracts are a heap of isht.

Chick isn't simply trying to bring people into Christianity, he is sponsoring a campaign of intolerance and hatred for those who don't follow the fire and brimstone beliefs that he pushes. Jack Chick tracts are "man made junk."

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
I'm a godless, feminist, race-mixing, fornicating heathen, and even I know that Roman Catholicism is based on Biblical doctrines and Jack Chick tracts are a heap of isht.

Chick isn't simply trying to bring people into Christianity, he is sponsoring a campaign of intolerance and hatred for those who don't follow the fire and brimstone beliefs that he pushes. Jack Chick tracts are "man made junk."

Don't even get me started on Jack Chick and the rest of his fundamentalist ilk publishing that trash! If it doesn't meet his holier-than-thou standards, then you're going straight to hell.

<-- lapsed Roman Catholic and Freemason (according to Chick, I'm gonna roast for eternity!)

[GeekyPenguin]

Wow. If adduncan and I are agreeing, something's up around here.

The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean that everything the Pope says is the word of God. For example, if the Pope rolls out of bed in the morning and says "I like Egg McMuffins" that does not mean we'll be serving them at Mass from now on. Papal infallibility is based on statements the Pope makes when speaking as the Pope the office, not the Pope the person.

The Catholic church does not worship Mary, nor do we worship images or relics. They are there as symbolism, just like how a photo of the Four Founders of Gamma Phi Beta isn't worship or adolation, but respect.

I'll let a better Catholic handle the rest of the issues, should they choose to.

And yes, I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC. I was baptized in a Roman Catholic Church, made my First Communion and Confession at another Roman Catholic Church, and was confirmed at the same church I was baptized at. I also attend a Jesuit school. I might not agree with everything the Pope or my Archbishop says, but it's better than believing Jack Chick.

[Jill1228]

I was raised Catholic (no longer practicing aka "a recovering Catholic") and it shocked and offended me!

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
BobraFCD, I'm curious as to what possesses you to think Catholicism isn't Biblically based. You read one article by one disgruntled priest and that's enough for you?

Your post was offensive to me and I'm a very relaxed Catholic. Please think about who could be reading your posts.

[Beryana]

Oh, if I didn't have mid-terms tomorrow! I am a VERY practicing Roman Catholic - and I KNOW my faith. If you would like I could debunk ALL your 'myths' about Catholicism after I take my exams (one of which is actually Early Christian Church History - and I'm at the University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point which is a public university!).

Here are just a few things to note:

Papal infallibility has only been used about twice in the past 2000 years - both of them around the 1800s (I can get exact dates if you would really like them)!

Praying for the dead is actually in the Bible (I can get you the exact reference).

We do not worship Mary or the saints - we pray WITH them (I can get more theological on this if you would like. . . )


The celebration of the Mass/Eucharist has been around since Holy Thursday. The earliest record of a Christian worship service was in 120AD.

The 'funniest' thing is that it was until 367AD that the Christian Church (now the Roman Catholic Church) formally published the contents of the Bible. The statement of faith was written in 325AD. (Only slightly less funny was being told by someone that Constantine brought Christianity to the pagans and so was the first Pope. . . .)

As I said, I will address each of the 'arguments' (either on the board or in a PM) after I'm finished worrying about the formation of Parliament and the English system of feudalism.

Sarah

P.S. if you want a GOOD site to look at to learn about catholicism try Catholic Answers

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Beryana
Oh, if I didn't have mid-terms tomorrow! I am a VERY practicing Roman Catholic - and I KNOW my faith. If you would like I could debunk ALL your 'myths' about Catholicism after I take my exams (one of which is actually Early Christian Church History - and I'm at the University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point which is a public university!)

Please do, Beryana! You'll do a much better job than the one I got started on.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Wow. If adduncan and I are agreeing, something's up around here.

The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean that everything the Pope says is the word of God. For example, if the Pope rolls out of bed in the morning and says "I like Egg McMuffins" that does not mean we'll be serving them at Mass from now on. Papal infallibility is based on statements the Pope makes when speaking as the Pope the office, not the Pope the person.

The Catholic church does not worship Mary, nor do we worship images or relics. They are there as symbolism, just like how a photo of the Four Founders of Gamma Phi Beta isn't worship or adolation, but respect.

I'll let a better Catholic handle the rest of the issues, should they choose to.

And yes, I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC. I was baptized in a Roman Catholic Church, made my First Communion and Confession at another Roman Catholic Church, and was confirmed at the same church I was baptized at. I also attend a Jesuit school. I might not agree with everything the Pope or my Archbishop says, but it's better than believing Jack Chick.

Don't kill the messenger here--I was just giving information on why many people feel Catholicism isn't Christian. I provided a list of things (direct from the Catholic Encyclopedia) that were implemented long after the Bible was written....

As for me personally, I believe that every church has it's good points and bad points, and we all fall short of what we're supposed to be. For the record, my husband and dearest friends were raised Catholic so I don't have anything personal against anyone who professes to be Catholic.

[exlurker]

Just wondering, here:

Originally posted by BobraFCD
. . . . The Book of Revelation has letters to the seven churches, one of them the church of Rome (Catholicism). . . .

I checked in two translations of Revelation, and found what I recalled -- chapters 1, 2 and 3 contain the references to, and contents of, the letters to "the seven churches that are in Asia." They are specified as Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. There doesn't seem to be a letter to the church of Rome among the seven.

ETA: To be on topic here -- In my high school and college years it was quite common for lots of members of the fraternities and sororities at the state university in my home town to attend church in groups, and to be welcomed by our minister. Certainly not all the members of every chapter would attend -- mine was a Protestant church, and Catholic students would generally go to Mass at the local Catholic church or to the Newman Center next to campus. Jewish students would choose from either Hillel or the services of the local Jewish community. So I wouldn't say there was any great observable divide between Greeks and Christians or Jews.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by exlurker
Just wondering, here:

I checked in two translations of Revelation, and found what I recalled -- chapters 1, 2 and 3 contain the references to, and contents of, the letters to "the seven churches that are in Asia." They are specified as Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. There doesn't seem to be a letter to the church of Rome among the seven.

The Church of Ephesus was the historical root of Roman Catholicism....there are several historical books that explain in greater detail...

[Beryana]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
The Church of Ephesus was the historical root of Roman Catholicism....there are several historical books that explain in greater detail...

How? The main centers of Christianity were Jerusalem, Rome, and Antioch. Constantinople didn't come into play until around 330 or so. Jerusalem was also seen as a center only until James died in the 1st Century. Last time I checked, Christianity began with Jesus in Jerusalem, so saying that Ephesus is where Christianity began would be rather false. . . .and wouldn't being Roman in name mean that it was based on teh center in ROME? Rather than Antioch or Jerusalem. . . .

Could I get a list of the books you are referencing so that I might compare them to the books that I am using?

Sarah

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by Beryana

Oh, if I didn't have mid-terms tomorrow! I am a VERY practicing Roman Catholic - and I KNOW my faith. If you would like I could debunk ALL your 'myths' about Catholicism after I take my exams (one of which is actually Early Christian Church History - and I'm at the University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point which is a public university!).

Here are just a few things to note:

Papal infallibility has only been used about twice in the past 2000 years - both of them around the 1800s (I can get exact dates if you would really like them)!

Praying for the dead is actually in the Bible (I can get you the exact reference).

We do not worship Mary or the saints - we pray WITH them (I can get more theological on this if you would like. . . )


The celebration of the Mass/Eucharist has been around since Holy Thursday. The earliest record of a Christian worship service was in 120AD.

The 'funniest' thing is that it was until 367AD that the Christian Church (now the Roman Catholic Church) formally published the contents of the Bible. The statement of faith was written in 325AD. (Only slightly less funny was being told by someone that Constantine brought Christianity to the pagans and so was the first Pope. . . .)

As I said, I will address each of the 'arguments' (either on the board or in a PM) after I'm finished worrying about the formation of Parliament and the English system of feudalism.

Sarah

P.S. if you want a GOOD site to look at to learn about catholicism try Catholic Answers

I'd love to have a respectful conversation with you. But the Christian Church started with Christ; and Christian worship services started in the Book of Acts (not 367 AD-years after Christ). Archeologist William F. Albright and director of the British Museum, Sir Frederick Kenion both stated that the Gospels were written 5-30 years after the death of Jesus. This is important because there were eye-witnesses to Jesus' life still alive and no one disputed it (according to first century historian Josephus).

The first "Christians" were Jewish. Think about it--they were his disciples. The Christians went through well documented era of persecution for their beliefs. According to the history books, Roman Governor Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians. His "solution" was to forbid the Christians to stop practicing their Jewish festivals and combined them with pagan festivals. For example, Dec. 25 is the birthday of the Sun God Ra. Constantine combined the celebration of Ra with the celebration of birth of Christ. We know from the Bible that Jesus was likely born around what we know as September or October. Remember that the ancient Hebrew calendar is different from ours.


Likewise, the day of worship, the Sabbath was a Saturday and it was changed to Sunday (named again after pagan god Ra). It goes on an on...it's actually quite fascinating when you study history...

When you get time-shoot me a PM--I'd love to discuss with you my research, and I'd love to hear your perspective!
Fraternally,
BFCD

[Beryana]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
I'd love to have a respectful conversation with you. But the Christian Church started with Christ; and Christian worship services started in the Book of Acts (not 367 AD-years after Christ). Archeologist William F. Albright and director of the British Museum, Sir Frederick Kenion both stated that the Gospels were written 5-30 years after the death of Jesus. This is important because there were eye-witnesses to Jesus' life still alive and no one disputed it (according to first century historian Josephus).

The first "Christians" were Jewish. Think about it--they were his disciples. The Christians went through well documented era of persecution for their beliefs. According to the history books, Roman Governor Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians. His "solution" was to forbid the Christians to stop practicing their Jewish festivals and combined them with pagan festivals. For example, Dec. 25 is the birthday of the Sun God Ra. Constantine combined the celebration of Ra with the celebration of birth of Christ. We know from the Bible that Jesus was likely born around what we know as September or October. Remember that the ancient Hebrew calendar is different from ours.

Likewise, the day of worship, the Sabbath was a Saturday and it was changed to Sunday (named again after pagan god Ra). It goes on an on...it's actually quite fascinating when you study history...

When you get time-shoot me a PM--I'd love to discuss with you my research, and I'd love to hear your perspective!
Fraternally,
BFCD

Constantine worshiped the Roman god, Apollo, not the Egyptian god Ra. . . .and this was supposedly throughout his entire life. . . .

Christians could openly worship in 326AD - and Constantine was involved in the issuing of the Edict of Milan in 313 AD (which followed shortly behind the persecutions of Diocletian) making Christianity legal because he believed he saw a cross in the sun before attacking Rome and many of his troops were Christian.

The Gospels were written between 67AD and 102AD but until 367 each Christian community was using their own books and in 367AD the Bible was 'standardized' (for lack of a better word at 1am).

There were early debates about whether Gentiles first needed to become Jewish before becoming Christians - and the early Christians were actually preaching in the temples, but after 70AD the Jews were not too pleased with the Christians as they supposedly antagonized the Romans more than the Jews did, thus causing the burning of the Temple by Titus.

Sarah