SigEp brothers become ADPhis

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by exlurker
Cattle prods? CATTLE PRODS? You know what I'm thinking about?

There must be great guys at W&L who don't like hazing, and I hope things get turned around there.

Well, the cattle prod thing was about 5-6 years ago now. The fraternity that did that was kicked off for a year and is now back. Their reputation did not suffer one bit and they draw lots of guys every year. They pull a lot of weight on our campus for various reasons. I'm not saying that they still cattle prod their pledges, but I wouldn't be especially surprised, considering that I hang out at the low-key houses and I know what goes on there...

There are some houses that don't haze as harshly. I know several houses that mostly do early morning runs and physical calisthenics and the like. And have their pledges dress up, carry around ridiculous items, etc. While I would never want my sorority to do those kinds of activities, in terms of W&L fraternity culture I feel like they're pretty harmless. Those are mainly the places I hang out. But the "best" houses (I use that term very loosely because I don't consider those houses as the best) are pretty intense in terms of pledgeship.

I'm not going to comment on any specific houses in terms of hazing, but I would say it's a very accepted fact of life.

In contrast, our sorority system is almost hazing-free, I'd say. We prize that here.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by greeklawgirl
Wow, I'm really surprised about this. I didn't know that pledging into a second fraternity was even possible after you've been initiated into the first. I know that with NPCs, you get one bite at the apple. If you've been initiated into one--that's it. You're done.

Under NIC rules, a man who was initiatied into ABC Fraternity can later be initiated in XYZ Fraternity if the inter/national office of ABC confirms in writing that the man is no longer a member of ABC (ie, he has been expelled or the like).

This would be why the article breathesgelatin quotes at the start of this thread focuses so much on the question of whether the letter to the chapter members is sufficient to establish that they are no longer members of SigEp.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
There were some of the Members of NIC I beleive, decided to disaffiliate with this governing body because They felt is had done little or nothing for the good of Greek Fraternitys.

I cannot remember which ones that made that decision, but some well known Memebers. There was as I understand it, a lot of discussion amongst a lot of the others at the time.

The two fraternities that left the NIC last year are Phi Delta Theta and Kappa Sigma. Over the years, quite a few well-known inter/national fraternities have left the NIC and rejoined later.

It has to be remembered that the NIC is quite different from the NPC. The NIC has little if any "governing" authority and has little ability to make binding policy for its members like the NPC does. Rather, it is mainly an advocacy and support organization for member fraternities. Policies like the one that prevents Joe Blow from being initiated by a second fraternity until Joe's first fraternity confirms that he is no longer a member exist not because the NIC has imposed it per se, but because the member fraternities have agreed to the policy as a condition of membership in the NIC.

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Policies like the one that prevents Joe Blow from being initiated by a second fraternity until Joe's first fraternity confirms that he is no longer a member exist not because the NIC has imposed it per se, but because the member fraternities have agreed to the policy as a condition of membership in the NIC.

That's how our NPC "governs" us. Each of the 26 member sororities of NPC have to vote UNANIMOUSLY to enact a rule that governs us....such as the rule of one initiation and that's it, game over. Same thing with quota/total....it was agreed upon by the representatives of all the NPC groups. However, NPC has adopted more stringent agreements than the NIC has....sometimes I think that's because females aren't always as "laid back" as the males !

PsychTau

[Optimist Prime]

Good for them. I would want to join another fraternity too if Nationals was like "you're done" and they said that to everyone, we would still all want to be brothers and hopefully not give up on being a fraterernity.

[madmax]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
So, they've done it. A couple of you know about this from my first post about it.

I don't think they're going to get recognized. We'll see. I don't think it's good for IFC relations, national or local. Hopefully it all works out for the guys. Although they have sort of subtly threatened to pass out bids in October or November if they don't get recognized (which would be really odd, since we have a winter rush).

Why I don't think they'll get recognized: They can't get their house back. The school owns the house and SigEp holds the lease for the next 3 years, when they plan to recolonize. I don't know where they'll be able to find a house as remotely as nice as the houses we now have on campus. Plus the school requires that all recongized fraternities' houses be owned by the school, and there aren't any unleased ones. Compound that to the fact that we don't have enough guys to support 15 fraternities (much less 16) anymore... and I think the whole situation is awkward. (The school was all guys until 1985 and has only gotten to 50-50 male female in the past 2 years or so... Numbers have been dropping due to this.)

From one of the school papers:

http://www.thetrident.org/news/525730.html



With members' initiation into Alpha Delta Phi, fraternity leaders say the chapter is on the road to recovery and business is proceeding as usual: they are carrying on with regular rush, playing intramurals, and holding regular chapter meetings. Also, they are actively searching to buy a new fraternity house with money being raised from Alpha Delt alumni.

Did Alpha Delta Phi used to have a chapter at WL?

[exlurker]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
Well, the cattle prod thing was about 5-6 years ago now. The fraternity that did that was kicked off for a year and is now back. Their reputation did not suffer one bit and they draw lots of guys every year. They pull a lot of weight on our campus for various reasons. I'm not saying that they still cattle prod their pledges, but I wouldn't be especially surprised, considering that I hang out at the low-key houses and I know what goes on there...

There are some houses that don't haze as harshly. I know several houses that mostly do early morning runs and physical calisthenics and the like. And have their pledges dress up, carry around ridiculous items, etc. While I would never want my sorority to do those kinds of activities, in terms of W&L fraternity culture I feel like they're pretty harmless. Those are mainly the places I hang out. But the "best" houses (I use that term very loosely because I don't consider those houses as the best) are pretty intense in terms of pledgeship.

I'm not going to comment on any specific houses in terms of hazing, but I would say it's a very accepted fact of life.

In contrast, our sorority system is almost hazing-free, I'd say. We prize that here.

Breathesgelatin -- and Sugar and Spice -- thank you for clarifying things for me! I really should have done more homework; then I would've realized that --

1. The Washington and Lee university policy statement against hazing is a sham

2. The W&L IFC policy statement against hazing is a sham, too. (By extension, can one conclude that the individual fraternities' anti-hazing policies are also more or less a set of lies -- or at least selectively applied?)

3. A highly selective, prestigious university like W&L knows what its students / applicants and their parents want.

4. Around three-quarters of the male students apparently want to be hazed -- and the more severe the hazing, the better, socially speaking.

5. Tradition rules.

So, hey, if that's what a bunch of overwhelmingly white upper-middle-class and upper-class guys and their families want and are willing to pay fairly big bucks for, who am I to object?

One small question -- how do they handle physical or emotional damage if/when it occurs? Student and alumni social pressure to hush it up? Alumni payoffs to keep parents and students quiet? Alumni and university officials working together to make sure the school's disciplinary processes are well-greased, or -- G*d forbid it should happen -- making sure the Virginia legal system is kept out of things?

Surely the chapters don't rely on insurance companies and their Nationals to handle the potential financial damage?

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by starang21
i guess stuff like this happens when you don't love your organization.

LOL!!

I'm speechless about this thing, though.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
They got kicked out! SigEp kicked them out! They said "Hey, Captain Underpants, we're closing Virginia XYZ and you aren't a brother anymore." Would you love your organization after that?

Sometimes I wish that you would give as much respect to NPC/NIC orgs as we give to the NPHC orgs on GC. It goes both ways.

And like I said in the original thread, SigEp HQ has been putting insane pressure on a lot of chapters lately, and has some very unreasonable expectations, IMHO.

Calm down

If SigEp expelled these young men, that's too bad.

But, joining another organization is "insane," in my opinion, and in the opinions of many others.

Just because you are technically ALLOWED to do something, doesn't mean that doing so makes a helluva lot of sense.

But, (as the old cliche goes when there's a difference in opinions, and some folks get unnecessarily excited) "to each his own."

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by sigep653
I hope things work out well for the new ADPhis, and I hope they remember the oath they took when they were intiated into Sig Ep, cause if they don't, we've got a problem. I think y'all know what I mean.

In Phi,
Sigep653

I think that statement sums up the issue that many folks have with this situation.

But, if they're no longer members of Sig Ep...especially if some of them MIGHT be pissed at Sig Ep...can folk be mad at them not remembering their oath?

Just playing CHAOS advocate, here.

[g41965]

Alpha Delta Phi has never had a chapter at Washington & Lee. Delta Upsilon had a chapter at Washington & Lee from 1930-1971.Psi Upsilon had a chapter had a chapter from 1970-1974.
I wonder if either National was contacted by the ex Sig Ep's before AD PHi was contacted.
DU mentioned reviving the W&L chapter in a magazine article in 97or 98.

I wonder if the SIGEp/ADPhi situation is a natural result of National Org's being readier to suspend chapters without a smoking gun.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by g41965
Alpha Delta Phi has never had a chapter at Washington & Lee. Delta Upsilon had a chapter at Washington & Lee from 1930-1971.Psi Upsilon had a chapter had a chapter from 1970-1974.
I wonder if either National was contacted by the ex Sig Ep's before AD PHi was contacted.

Delta Tau Delta also had a chapter here, the Phi chapter. ATO *might* have... not sure... they were founded in Lexington.


My understanding is that ADPhi was contacted because of some connections the then SigEp brothers had.

[breathesgelatin]

First off, I wasn't trying to be rude, if you perceived it that way. I'm just trying to explain our campus culture (of which I do not approve).

Originally posted by exlurker
1. The Washington and Lee university policy statement against hazing is a sham

I'd say yes to this one. The school tries to enforce it but the hazing is kept well underground. The things that ARE out in the open are not, however, reprimanded (ie dressing like pirates to class). In my mind, if they really wanted to prove it though, they could.

Originally posted by exlurker
2. The W&L IFC policy statement against hazing is a sham, too. (By extension, can one conclude that the individual fraternities' anti-hazing policies are also more or less a set of lies -- or at least selectively applied?)

Definately. No fraternity here wants to see hazing end, except for maybe 2-3 of them. The IFC would take action and does take action if violations are found, but they seldom are "found out", and those that are found are usually minor.

Originally posted by exlurker
3. A highly selective, prestigious university like W&L knows what its students / applicants and their parents want.

On the contrary, I think most parents are opposed to hazing. I've only met one pro-hazing father. There is a sense in which, though, most people who come here do expect to pledge. Guys find out pretty early that there will be hazing involved. Parents generally get lied to. Most parents I have met are adamantly anti-hazing. And by no means does the school promote hazing to parents. It doesn't even promote Greek life in its admissions policies.

Originally posted by exlurker
4. Around three-quarters of the male students apparently want to be hazed -- and the more severe the hazing, the better, socially speaking.

Well, yes, to a degree. No one wants to be beat to a pulp, but most support hazing to a degree. 80% of guys here pledge. And the "best" fraternities are the worst hazers.

Originally posted by exlurker
5. Tradition rules.

This statement sums up what's best and worst about W&L all at once. We must diversify and reform our Greek life, but we should keep our Greek and other important traditions.

Originally posted by exlurker
So, hey, if that's what a bunch of overwhelmingly white upper-middle-class and upper-class guys and their families want and are willing to pay fairly big bucks for, who am I to object?

One small question -- how do they handle physical or emotional damage if/when it occurs? Student and alumni social pressure to hush it up? Alumni payoffs to keep parents and students quiet? Alumni and university officials working together to make sure the school's disciplinary processes are well-greased, or -- G*d forbid it should happen -- making sure the Virginia legal system is kept out of things?

Surely the chapters don't rely on insurance companies and their Nationals to handle the potential financial damage?

Well... not sure about the emotional implications. I feel that a lot of that gets repressed until graduation, or it turns into a drinking issue. Alcoholism is a definite problem here! Alumni social pressure is key. The top 4-5 fraternities are NOT going to get kicked off for any length of time or suffer any consequences so major as to permanently damage their standing.

I've never seen a case that came to a Virginia legal system. I've seen 2-3 cases that went to the IFC for minor things. I know of one case where 6-7 brothers resigned from a house to avoid any complications (that was an alcohol poisoning issue).. I know of a few broken bones, etc, but I don't think those were ever "found out"....

In short, it's all hidden. Everyone knows it's there, but the fraternities don't want to change, most other people are too scared to rat them out, and the school doesn't want to tarnish its reputation or lose alumni support by revealing it or closing chapters.

I don't want this to turn into a W&L hazing thread. That's not what I meant this as.

[breathesgelatin]

An article came out in the non-online school paper today.

The gist of it is that the NIC will hear SigEp's complaint against ADPhi this week. SigEp does not believe that it released the members of the Virginia Epsilon chapter.

If I can find the article online I will, but I don't want to retype the thing. Actually my little sis is the news editor of this paper and wrote the article... so maybe she could email it to me!

[exlurker]

breathesgelatin -- I didn't think you were being rude in any way, and I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought that. If I did, I truly apologize.