RU-486

[MIDWESTDIVA]

I have been trying very hard not to respond to this but I just can't help myself. I am most definitely pro-choice and yes I have had an abortion. To those of you who are wondering why am I putting my business out here on front street like this, it is because I would like to prevent others from following in my footsteps, and also to present the other side of this discussion.

The question was raised, "How can a woman be a Christian and be pro-choice?" Let me try to explain. I do not believe that abortion is right. In my situation it was the lesser of two options. I was not raped. I just was young and dumb where men are concerned. I have several reasons for choosing abortion instead of life, which I will not go into here.

I will not try to make abortion sound warm and fuzzy. Far from that, it was emotionally and physically painful. Afterwards I felt extremely guilty and as though I were unworthy of God's love. However, after much prayer I believe that God has forgiven me.
I do believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of our sins, and yes that includes abortions. Contrary to popular belief, having an abortion is not a "worse" sin than having premarital sex, lying, coveting another's spouse or any of the other 10 commandments.

This experience has opened my eyes as to why God wants us to wait until we are married to have sex. I honestly believe that God knows that it is in our best interest. Not that God is some omniscient prude trying to spoil our earthly fun. After coming to this realization I decided to become celibate and have been for the past 2 years.

If anyone wants to look down on me for the decision I have made, I welcome you to have an abortion rally in my front yard. But perhaps your time and energy would be better spent on preventing unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place by educating our young girls about abstinence and birth control.

On a side note, I don't believe that God "caused" me to get pregnant. If that were the case then God also "caused" me to sin by having premarital sex. I believe Eclipse made a reference to Job. Job's afflictions were not the direct result of a sin he committed. My pregnancy was most definitely the direct result of my sin. I hope that sheds some light for you.

Peace and Blessings

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 04, 2000).]

[icytre]

Hello,
I must say that I have learned a great deal on this thread, but I do have a question. Are most abortion cases extreme cases? (for example: the 14 yr. old girl is molested by her HIV infested uncle) Is there a balance, or are most cases due to irresponsible people?

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Icytre,

Most of the ladies that were in the waiting room with me were there because of irresponsible behavior, not rape or molestation. Off the top of my head I can remember one of the girls was White and had a Black boyfriend. He told that he liked her, but there was no way in Hell he was having a baby by a white girl. Another lady was there because she already had three children and didn't want anymore. Still, another lady was married, but she and her husband weren't ready to start a family. Some of the other girls were there because they were young teenagers whose mothers decided for them that they were not going to have children at such young ages.

[Teresa2000]

I think that all the responses that have been posted about this subject were written by women. Any men out there with an opinion?

-Teresa

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:


Afterwards I felt extremely guilty and as though I were unworthy of God's love. However, after much prayer I believe that God has forgiven me.
I do believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of our sins, and yes that includes abortions. Contrary to popular belief, having an abortion is not a "worse" sin than having premarital sex, lying, coveting another's spouse or any of the other 10 commandments.

If anyone wants to look down on me for the decision I have made,

I believe Eclipse made a reference to Job. Job's afflictions were not the direct result of a sin he committed.

Peace and Blessings

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 04, 2000).]

MIDWESTDIVA,
First let me give you a (((cyberhugg))) for being willing to share your testimony!! It takes a lot of courage, but as the word says "we overcome by the word of our testimony"!

You know, there are so many situations where I (and many others) have to say but for the grace of God, go I.

I do want to make comment on a couple of things you wrote (I've edited your original message above to include those points> )

You are 100% right is that the sin of premarital sex/abortion is no different from the many sins that I and every other Christian struggle with on a daily basis. It is a trick of the enemy to make us feel that we are unworthy of God's love!! My favorite song right now is "WE Fall Down" by Donnie McClurkin. Wow! That song ministers to me in so many different ways!! What a joy to know that when we fall (in what ever way) we can get back up again and the He forgives us of all our sins!!

As Christains we cannot judge another's sins, we just can't condone sin. Saying I don't condone a certain sin doesn't mean that I look down on a person who has committed the sin. I know that if all of my sins were out there for the whole world to see a whole lotta folks would be looking down on me!! I thank Him for His grace!!

Regarding my reference to Job...you are right, Job's afflictions were not because of his sin. I mentioned him because I wanted to show that although God did not cause the bad things to happen to Job, he did allow them to happen when He offered Job to satan and gave satan permission to bring all of the things he brought into his life.


I didn't mean to turn this into bible study!

Peace & Blessings to you all...
E.

[Diva_56]

Hey ladies I'm back...

First of all, I did not mean to insinuate that I was angry in my last post... I used caps and bold to hilight and intensify words... abortion is a very near and dear subject to me and and I will attempt to answer every question posed to me on the issue.
This will be a long post so I apologise beforehand...


Orignally quoted by BrandNubian

"IMO, abortion is a very complicated issue. Abortion is not an isolated event, nor is it a self-contained phenomenon. Abortion is part of something more systemic. Maybe what people need is Jesus (or Allah, or Buddha, or the Creator), but who can say? And just putting that out there does not solve the problem.

I am more than respectful of your spiritual path and beliefs, so please don't take this the wrong way, but quoting scripture will not solve all of the issues that a person inevitably has to consider when talking about abortion. The reality is, a more holistic and complete sexual education is needed to educate everyone (especially women) about their bodies, their sexuality (not just the act of sex), the choices available to them, the consequences of certain choices, ways to protect themselves, ways to be healthy sexual beings, ways to be spiritual and sexual.

I think one of the key problems with abortion is that lack of effective sexual education. Perhaps if we had better sexual education, we wouldn't have as much pregnancy or abortion. Perhaps if we didn't live in a culture that is simultaneously oversexed (we use sex to present/sell everything!) and sexually repressed, pregnancy and abortion wouldn't be such problems either. Just a few theories."



I agree that abortion isn't an isolated incident... It is a result of SIN in our lives... of course I am talking from a totally Christian viewpoint and I would think anyone that considers themself Christian would think the same thing according to the word of God. The reality is that people need Jesus and need to realize when you sin, there is cause and effect relationship. You have sex, more than not you will get pregnant... I think the best sex education of all is to teach our young ones that the body is a temple and you are to respect it. Sex biblically is made for marriage (see the problems when you don't have Jesus) and when ou sin against your body(ie: have sex out of marriage) you are expected to pay the consequenses for sin, period. This pill is just another way of women finding the easy way out of their responsibility. You are also KILLING A CHILD! I want to get that through to everyone... Killing is wrong biblically and morally... you don't win either way.

originally quoted form LadyAKA:

"Sitting in church last night (REVIVAL WEEK) my teacher mentioned how the bible is sometimes taken out of context. Diva_56, I see your point and I know exactly what the word says also, but I must say this is your opinion and interpretation of the word. I am not for killing "JUST BECAUSE" but seriously you need to think about the women in the situation. Would you like to be "so called inconvenienced" if you were raped and then impregnated??"

Yes some do take scripture out of context, in this case I was trying to point out how thr writer of this psalm David realized that God had a pupose for his life even in the womb, and if God reconizes the importance of David's life in the womb, then who are we as imperfect human beings to determine the direction or end of anyone's life.
And as far as misinterpreting scripture, you cant misinterpret "Thou shalt not Kill."

Concerning the rape issue, I discussed this with my fiance last night and feel like this... life deals us cards, some that we don't want and some that we do. Being rapped is a terrible crime. I was once a victem of a sexual assult that if I didn't fight back, I would have been raped. I have too considered this if I were to have gotten pregnant because of a rape, I remembered one thing. The BABY is innocent... he/she didn't harm a soul... my attacker was put in jail and HE, not the BABY will pay for what he has done to me. And as far as this hypothetical baby "Inconviencing" me, life is not fair and Jesus allowed the cards to be delt, I must play my hand. I would be totally worse for a little child that were impegnated by some person but unfortunately the same will apply. This is what sin does. SIN is the problem and when we start to deal with it, it will change a person. I will not kill an unborn child under any circumstances for convience.

[b] quoted by Ania:
I don't mean to start an uproar but there is a saying, "Do not pass judgement on.....".
Another thing, the word, "abortion" is not mentioned or given reference to in the bible. It's your choice to take it out of text.

I do reckon there are many passages on abortion in the bible. The bible does not directly say the word abortion. Read Jerimiah
Psalms, Job, and Leviticus. you will find refrences to abortion there.


I will try to cut this post short not to crowd the board.




------------------
In complete darkness we are all the same... It is only our knowledge and wisdom that separates us... Don't let your eyes deceive you

Janet Jackson

[Diva_56]

Originally posted by Me By Nature:
This topic is so complicated. I am pro-life and don't believe that unborn babies should be killed. It's hard for me to understand how Christians can be pro-choice. I am christian and am BY NO MEANS perfect. Trust me, the Lord has A LOT of work to do with me so I am not trying to take the holier-than-thou road because, quite truthfully, I just don't qualify. However, I happen to know that the Lord does not make mistakes. And if you trust in Him and His Word than some of the reasons stated for having an abortion
don't measure up. Take this scenario, a teenage girl and boyfriend are having an intimate relationship and she gets pregnant. She has no job, no education, and her boyfriend is a striaght BUM. Should she get an abortion? I am taking an educated guess that most people who said they were pro-choice would say that she should have an abortion, but how is that fair to the unborn child? How is it fair that this baby can never experience life? Alright, she won't have much money, will have to wear second hand clothes, and might possibly go to bed hungry some nights. Can you honestly say that the child would have been better off dead? I know so many people who grew up deprived, some were abused- physically and verbally, and some grew up dead broke the conditions were truly deplorable. But, they grew up- and learned from there past and are going on with healthy lives. Lives that might not have come to be if they were aborted because the family didn't have money, or the mother was too young with no education, or the mother was forced to have the baby. I am not saying that all will turn out alright. But they at least need that chance. This is long and I am sorry, but I would not have right if I just passed by tne topic without responding.
I don't see people who choose to have abortions any different than I see myself who is "shacking" with my boyfriend. None of us are perfect and none will ever be. We all have things we need to work on. All I am saying is that we will never know what will be because we can't see the bigger picture, we have to trust and believe in God. And for those who say that it is more complicated than that (trusting and believing in God), I don't know what else to say to you.

Praise God!!! there is someone who understands! there is NO JUSTIFICATION for abortion, period!

[Diva_56]

Originally posted by Eclipse:

MIDWESTDIVA,
First let me give you a (((cyberhugg))) for being willing to share your testimony!! It takes a lot of courage, but as the word says "we overcome by the word of our testimony"!

You know, there are so many situations where I (and many others) have to say but for the grace of God, go I.

I do want to make comment on a couple of things you wrote (I've edited your original message above to include those points> )

You are 100% right is that the sin of premarital sex/abortion is no different from the many sins that I and every other Christian struggle with on a daily basis. It is a trick of the enemy to make us feel that we are unworthy of God's love!! My favorite song right now is "WE Fall Down" by Donnie McClurkin. Wow! That song ministers to me in so many different ways!! What a joy to know that when we fall (in what ever way) we can get back up again and the He forgives us of all our sins!!

As Christains we cannot judge another's sins, we just can't condone sin. Saying I don't condone a certain sin doesn't mean that I look down on a person who has committed the sin. I know that if all of my sins were out there for the whole world to see a whole lotta folks would be looking down on me!! I thank Him for His grace!!

Regarding my reference to Job...you are right, Job's afflictions were not because of his sin. I mentioned him because I wanted to show that although God did not cause the bad things to happen to Job, he did allow them to happen when He offered Job to satan and gave satan permission to bring all of the things he brought into his life.


I didn't mean to turn this into bible study!

Peace & Blessings to you all...
E.

Girlfriend preach! Your absolutey right! Job's situation was caused by God allowing the DEVIL to afflict him to STRENTHEN HIS FAITH! It happens to the best of us! I thank you Jesus for allowing my past to be forgiven... I don't know where I would be. We as Christians cannot condone the sin of abortion... it is just not God's plan to do so. I am in no way's perfect, but the truth is the truth and is not subjective at all! I believe the bible and all 66 books are true in context and form and is indeed the real spiritual truth, but hey "I'm just an nobody... trying to tell everybody...about somebody who can save anybody." I am glad I have been exposed to the truth in the word of God.

------------------
In complete darkness we are all the same... It is only our knowledge and wisdom that separates us... Don't let your eyes deceive you

Janet Jackson

[Lil' bit]

Women have a constitutional right to bodily autonomy. The government by no means are saying we have a right to kill a human being. But at the same time, abortion being so complicated does depend on when a person considers when it is killing another human being, because we also have a substantive due process right to LIFE, liberty, and property. I am pro-choice, but would hope that one would try to take the precautions necessary to not get pregnant if they are not ready. Of course, that's assuming there's no rape or incest. But again, if we allow the government to regulate these constitutionally protected interests of individuals, then we could very well end up back in the day where the government regulated too much. Such as when it was against the law for someone to marry outside their race, mainly marry Whites. However, not to get on the interracial dating thing, but the point is, we do have constitutionally protected interests. We do have substantive due process rights such as right to marry, right to privacy AND the right to have children. Would we want our right to have children taken away and regulated by the government? Some argue, if we have the right to have children, we should surely have the right not to have children.. Just a little constitutional twist on it.. I hope I haven't mistated anything, but if I have, Soror Attorney's please feel to correct me. Just my .08

[AlwaysDivine]

There are many faiths and philosophies in the world. The only thing that makes them right is the person or people who believe in them. I, personally believe that there IS JUSTIFICATION for an abortion whether its due to bad circumstances or a married couple who can not afford to properly support a second child. I believe in the right to life of a child but, I also believe in the right of a young girl, a young woman, an older woman, an unwed teen, or a widowed middle-aged woman to live her life. I refuse to believe that I or anyone should be made to make life harder on themselves. And although a mother should unconditionally and completely love their children...I'm sure we all know women who don't or at least act like they don't. No child deserves that. And some people are better off NOT having children. I don't even think all people DESERVE children. They take enormous amounts of time, energy, respect and love - which is something unfortunately not all people are willing to give. So once again I say...there IS TRULY JUSTIFICATION for an abortion. It shouldn't be a means for birth control (overuse) but it is sometimes rightly necessary. And, (excuse me if I offend) those who don't beleive so seem QUITE a bit unrealistic.

[Me By Nature]

<<AlwaysDivine>> Yes, I do think that the baby should be born. I am well aware that God created us to have free will, however dear, in my opinion, God is the giver of life. I am a scientist so I know all about the reproduction, but I truly believe that God is in control of that- directly. Just to make the "free will" point is just an example of the mistakes that we make. As for the question about a 12 year loving a child...I wouldn't know because I was not a 12 year old girl made pregnant by rape, maybe one can and maybe one can't but if she can't then there are plenty of people who can.

<<Ania>> If you believe that the Bible endures through time and you read it and get to know God then it shouldn't have to say "Thou shall not have an abortion" for you to know if it's right or not. And if you read my post completely you would know that I am not judging anyone because I laid my cards on the table.

<<MidWestDiva>>I do not look down on you or anyone else who have had an abortion. I got pregnant when I was in college and sat in the doctor's office to have the procedure done. The first place that I went to was too dirty, the second was too much money, the third was clean, affordable, and close but I sat there all day waiting and the doctor was stuck at his other practice and didn't make my appointment. I considered this divine intervention and now I hate myself everytime I look at my daughter and wonder how could I have wanted to do that to her. I am not saying this to hurt you but just to let you know that I have been where you were but just made the opposite choice.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on when you said that abortion is the greatest sin. God sees all sins the same which is why I, being the person that I am, can never call anyone a sinner or look down on anyone or even point fingers, because those other fingers would be pointing right back to me.

I hope this answers some of the questions regarding my previous post. There is not much more that I can say other than we all have views from different standpoints. What I consider right others may not and there is not much that I can do about that.

We will always have differences of opinion.

[AlwaysDivine]

ACTUALLY....I REALLY REALLY BEG TO DIFFER in reference to there being "someone who will" love the child. There are so many children WITHOUT permanent homes or parents. Children who have no one but their social worker they may see once a week. A LOT of children go unwanted and they KNOW this. So you suggest that it is better to put a child into the governmental system and potentiall neve know a realy family. Come on now. There are already So many black chiildren with no hope for adoption. Where do they go - how should they feel? Why should there be more?

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Eclipse, thank you for the (((cyberhugg)))!


I'm just curious. How many of our pro-life Greekchatters condone pre-marital sex? When I say condone, I mean the Webster's Dictionary definition which is:

condone-to pardon; to forgive; to overlook.

I ask this question because a lot of times Christians (me included) pick out certain sins to crusade against, such as abortion or homosexuality. However there are many others sins that we commit every day, for whatever reason these seem to go unnoticed. I'm not trying to make anyone angry here, I just like this discussion. I also don't mind anyone turning this into a "Bible Study". Last time I checked, Bible study has never hurt anyone.

Also, I can't help but notice that Icytre is the only man that dared tread these deep waters. Where are the rest of the fellas? I know they read this board daily and have chosen to remain silent on this subject. We won't bite you if you post a comment!

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by Diva_56:
I agree that abortion isn't an isolated incident... It is a result of SIN in our lives... of course I am talking from a totally Christian viewpoint and I would think anyone that considers themself Christian would think the same thing according to the word of God. The reality is that people need Jesus and need to realize when you sin, there is cause and effect relationship. You have sex, more than not you will get pregnant... I think the best sex education of all is to teach our young ones that the body is a temple and you are to respect it. Sex biblically is made for marriage (see the problems when you don't have Jesus) and when ou sin against your body(ie: have sex out of marriage) you are expected to pay the consequenses for sin, period. This pill is just another way of women finding the easy way out of their responsibility. You are also KILLING A CHILD! I want to get that through to everyone... Killing is wrong biblically and morally... you don't win either way.

Diva:

Thanx for your post. You already know my basic stance from my post, but I will say that we are in agreeance about the sexual education bit. I am all for teaching people (especially women) that their bodies are temples and that they should respect their bodies.

However, I don't agree with your statement that: "This pill is just another way of women finding the easy way out of their responsibility." But I'll end this there...we could go on for hours on this topic.

Anyway, thanx for sharing your perspective, though.

Peace Love and Progression,
B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[Diva_56]

Originally posted by AlwaysDivine:
There are many faiths and philosophies in the world. The only thing that makes them right is the person or people who believe in them. I, personally believe that there IS JUSTIFICATION for an abortion whether its due to bad circumstances or a married couple who can not afford to properly support a second child. I believe in the right to life of a child but, I also believe in the right of a young girl, a young woman, an older woman, an unwed teen, or a widowed middle-aged woman to live her life. I refuse to believe that I or anyone should be made to make life harder on themselves. And although a mother should unconditionally and completely love their children...I'm sure we all know women who don't or at least act like they don't. No child deserves that. And some people are better off NOT having children. I don't even think all people DESERVE children. They take enormous amounts of time, energy, respect and love - which is something unfortunately not all people are willing to give. So once again I say...there IS TRULY JUSTIFICATION for an abortion. It shouldn't be a means for birth control (overuse) but it is sometimes rightly necessary. And, (excuse me if I offend) those who don't beleive so seem QUITE a bit unrealistic.

Indeed children are not a right, they are a privilage. But in the same token children are not just property that when you are unable to (or simply don't want to) take care of them that you just throw them away (or in this case kill them... That is indeed UNREALISTIC.
If the married couple couldn't afford another child, DONT HAVE SEX until you are ready to assume responsibility for this child.

"I also believe in the right of a young girl, a young woman, an older woman, an unwed teen, or a widowed middle-aged woman to live her life. I refuse to believe that I or anyone should be made to make life harder on themselves. And although a mother should unconditionally and completely love their children...I'm sure we all know women who don't or at least act like they don't. No child deserves that.

A young woman, older woman, or especially a teenager should not be having premarital sex... biblically this is SIN. If you hypothetically decided to do this, you are in fact AT FAULT, not the CHILD. Why should the child die for YOUR mistake. YOU should be responsible for your choices, NOT THE BABY. Keep your legs closed and these things wont happen. I am aware that people are not perfect and are going to slip up, but should the child be responsible for weakness? Of course not. If you hit a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry, doesn't that person have to pay for their crime? Abortion is no different except that you are WILLINGLY killing your baby. Nobody made those women's lives harder, they brought this upon themselves with SIN (except the married couple. They will just have to brave the storm.) As with a case with rape, see my previous post.