censoring shirts?

[James]

Actually, I have yet to come across a fraternity chapter that had a problem with their own t-shirt designs or other chapters, regardless of content.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
sororities "tattling" on each other.

" . . . It's mostly the fraternities that seem to have problems with it.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by James
Actually, I have yet to come across a fraternity chapter that had a problem with their own t-shirt designs or other chapters, regardless of content.

I think what she meant was that the t-shirt obscene issue is usually a problem with fraternity t-shirts.

I have yet to see an obscene sorority t-shirt (although some probably are in existance.. just saying what I've seen...)

I have, however seen and also heard of obscene fraternity t-shirts. For example the now infamous Delta Omega Chi "Freshmen girls, get them while they're skinny" t-shirts... which caused their fraternity to get in trouble...

Also.. check this thread for more interesting reasons why censoring t-shirts probably isn't a bad idea.

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...5&pagenumber=2

[honeychile]

Originally posted by 33girl


Maybe if we didn't make shirts for every blessed event and just concentrated on wearing our letters we wouldn't have this problem, LOL.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Beyond that, if each National approves the design, then I don't see where the Panhel Police have to step in. Having a rule that a GLO must have their National's approval on a design prior to making & wearing them should be an effective enough policy.

More Greeks need to remember that, each time you wear your letters, you represent not just your house, but every chapter, and every alumnae.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by texas*princess
I think what she meant was that the t-shirt obscene issue is usually a problem with fraternity t-shirts.

Yes, this is what I meant.

As for the idea of having nationals OK a tee shirt -- it's just not very plausible. Sometimes national decision-makers don't meet all that often (I know we had to wait two and a half months to find out from nationals whether our financial paperwork was sorted out yet), and a lot of the paperwork that goes through nationals can get sticky and take a LONG time to work out. It would make more sense for the Greek advisor to overlook the shirts -- no mail involved, and it would take maybe ten minutes to OK or not OK all the Bid Day shirts on even the biggest Greek campuses.

[RUgreek]

This is not a good idea in my opinion. In fact, it makes no sense that it will not have any positive results. So you ban you sororities from printing slogans on shirts and let's say ever uttering these profane and vulgar words.... great now you've made these things taboo to one group of people on campus. It's ridiculous for me to understand how this will improve any image on campus.

It's good to set high standards for everyone on campus, but these standards should be a choice for those who want to participate. Maybe there are groups that don't care what other people think of them and like the image, whether it is considered bad or good by pan-hell's opinion, that is projected by themselves. Just being a greek organization doesn't give the school or greek council the right to set rules or standards that go beyond what any other student organization on campus has to deal with. It always starts with one, and it leads to 20 other little rules to "better the greek community."

Censorship is a dangerous area to get involved with, there are too many ways to interpret things. Something is always getting to the borderline, but not exactly crossing it, so how do you deal with slogans or situations of that nature? If a group wants to wear something in bad taste, it's their g-d damn constitutional right to wear it. Once they take off the letters, they are still students at the school, shouldn't make any difference.

The rule tries to "fix" a bad image. A bad image comes from numerous places: other schools close by, students coming to campus with pre-existing opinions and stereotypes, newspapers and student publications constantly reminding readers of the image as they perceive it, and of course the small examples done by the bad apples of the community.

This rule will most likely become passed, but only because of a false belief that the control of the bad image rests in their hands. In my opinion, it will only enhance the bad image of a greek community because they have recognized the image exists and have decided to force people from being involved in it. Students will undoubtedly get the impression that "wow, they must really have a problem if they have to censor themselves.... typical frat boys and sororitity sluts."


RUgreek

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by littleangel2017
hey everyone,
Hope you all are having a WONDERFUL summer, anyhow this thread is in concern with censoring shirts for sorority/fraternity members. Our panhellenic council has proposed this agreement for all sororities to censor their shirts. the agreement goes something like this: (before you read, this agreement has yet to be passed and voted on, but it's in the workings):

In an effort to protect the public image of the Panhellenic Council, the member chapters at USF hereby agree to adhere to a high standard of professionalism through selecting and producing tasteful slogans and graphics on all event themed shirts and publicity, examples of inappropriate content include, but are not limited to, use of foul language, derogatory vocabulary, or references to alcohol, drugs, or sex.

Just for the record, this is not censorship, at least not as you have described it. Censorship, properly speaking, is when someone with authority in an official position (eg, the government or the university) examines books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable. It can also be applied in military situations for the examination of personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security. What you have described is a voluntary agreement to abide by certain rules. Since what you have posted says "the member chapters . . . hereby agree," I assume that it means that each chapter will choose to be part of this agreement or not. Even if it is just a majority vote of the PC, however, it is still not true censorhip -- it just becomes the (possibly unenforceable) rule of an umbrella organization for its member organizations.

do you think it violates our right to free speech?

No way. Only the government can violate your right to free speech, because the First Amendment only applies to the government. It does not apply to private groups like a college Panhellenic Council.

So, this is not censorship not a violation of free speeck. Whether it is a good idea or not is a different matter.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by UCFPhiDelt
Freedom of Speech... I am not sure these rules would hold against a legal challenge.

Unless you are attending a public university and can make a compelling argument that the Panhellenic Council is an agency of the university (which I think would be very hard, since the PC is a student-run organization), Freedom of Speech is not at issue. See my post to littleangel2017 about the First Amendment only applying to the government.

[littleangel2017]

hey everyone,
Now this is in reguards to the last posted email about censoring. I'm not sure what classes you have taken but the first amendment right doesn't only apply to government. I can say this because our school just recently had President Bush visit our campus, the SCHOOL not president bush and his advisors, thought that the students were only able to voice out their opinions in a desginated area, which was called oddly enough..."FREE SPEECH zone" now call me retarded but the school may not be the U.S. government but it's still a governing body and therefore can dictate what can and will be said. This holds true for P.C. they are a governing body, that perhaps shouldn't be censoring my right as a citizen to wear and say what i please. As for censoring, this is a matter of censoring, if your teacher, parent, pastor, or any authority figure tells you what to wear, what to say, how to say it, what's vulgar, ect. that's a form of cersorship and i'm sure everyone, not including you, who has posted anything on this forum would agree. The issue here isn't censorship, but weather or not a t-shirt really dismisses sterotypes and helps us greeks out. Although your point is valid it has no real application, bottom line P.C is a governing authority, who, in our university gets funded by student government, who is funded and given a check personally from the school. SO P.C is a part of the university and is therefore a governing body. Although they may be small, in retrospect their still governed by the same principals of any governing body.



IN GREEK UNITY,
silverlee

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by littleangel2017
Now this is in reguards to the last posted email about censoring. I'm not sure what classes you have taken but the first amendment right doesn't only apply to government.

Well, that would be, among other classes, constitutional law in law school. Sorry silverlee, but you are just plain wrong.

FYI, the First Amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Note the beginning: "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech." The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, ratified after the Civil War, made many (although not all) of the rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights applicable to the states as well as to the federal government. Specifically for purposes of this post, as a result of the Fourteenth Amendment, neither the federal government nor any state or local government (local governments are creatures of state government) may make a law "abridging the freedom of speech." This prohibition applies to all officers, agencies and instrumentalities of the federal, state or local governments.

Hint: The Constitution of the United States creates the federal government and defines its powers and limitations of power, delineates the role of the federal government vis a vis the state governments, and places certain restrictions on the powers of state governments. That is its purpose and that is what it is limited to.

I can say this because our school just recently had President Bush visit our campus, the SCHOOL not president bush and his advisors, thought that the students were only able to voice out their opinions in a desginated area, which was called oddly enough..."FREE SPEECH zone" now call me retarded but the school may not be the U.S. government but it's still a governing body and therefore can dictate what can and will be said.

Actually, the University of South Florida (which your profile indicates you attend) is a public, state institution. As such, it is an instrumentality of the state of Florida -- an instrumentality of state government. That is why the First Amendment applies to it. (BTW, I never said that the First Amendment only applies to the U.S. government; I said that it only applies to the government.)

Thus endeth the lesson for today.

[James]

I understood what you meant . What i am saying is that you (the sororities) have a problem with the themes on fraternity shirts, and are trying to make the fraternities problem also, which it isn't already.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Yes, this is what I meant.

As for the idea of having nationals OK a tee shirt -- it's just not very plausible. Sometimes national decision-makers don't meet all that often (I know we had to wait two and a half months to find out from nationals whether our financial paperwork was sorted out yet), and a lot of the paperwork that goes through nationals can get sticky and take a LONG time to work out. It would make more sense for the Greek advisor to overlook the shirts -- no mail involved, and it would take maybe ten minutes to OK or not OK all the Bid Day shirts on even the biggest Greek campuses.

[bruinaphi]

MysticCat81 is on the money on the free speech issues. I spent three years in law school, and have taken Constitutional Law, Con Law II (1st Amendment) and passed the bar exam. Moreover, I had Erwin Chemerinsky (one of the nation's foremost experts on Con Law) as my Con Law II professor. It would be a HUGE stretch to argue that the 1st Amendment applies in this situation.

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by lauradav
MysticCat81 is on the money on the free speech issues. I spent three years in law school, and have taken Constitutional Law, Con Law II (1st Amendment) and passed the bar exam. Moreover, I had Erwin Chemerinsky (one of the nation's foremost experts on Con Law) as my Con Law II professor. It would be a HUGE stretch to argue that the 1st Amendment applies in this situation.

Chemerinsky Rocks! Lauradav, you are so lucky to have him as your professor. (Wish I could of had Freer for Civ. pro., but whatever..) I used his supplement to study my con. law class, so clear and easy to follow. Definitely recommend his book for anyone else who may take the course. (Ok, enough law school talk, nobody around here really cares

Not that anyone else needs backing up at this point, but I also took free speech / mass media law and the first amendment is directed towards the government. If you are in a private organization or group, your rules do not have to follow the constitution. Notice that every org has there own by-laws and constitution?

My problem is, since it's not coming from your nationals, this is a rule being done outside your bylaws and consitution, and as much as you think signing an agreement would make it voluntary and legally clear, it doesn't. This censorship agreement has no valid purpose in my mind. And since the pan-hell is under the umbrella of the school, i'm sure you could pierce that corporate veil of the university and accuse them of violating your symbolic speech rights. Going that route is a sticky situation and besides my point.

I just don't like rules that serve no reasonable purpose. And this one is a waste of time to me.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by James
I understood what you meant . What i am saying is that you (the sororities) have a problem with the themes on fraternity shirts, and are trying to make the fraternities problem also, which it isn't already.

I'm not suggesting that the sororities should be able to regulate the fraternity's shirts or anything like that. If guys want to put tacky messages on their shirts, they're obviously allowed to, as long as IFC doesn't have any rules against it. I just think that most of them should think twice about what they put on those shirts because it does a lot to reinforce bad stereotypes about the Greek system. It affects all of us, not just the fraternity in question.

[astroAPhi]

While in theory it might have the good intentions, I think it will cause more trouble and possibly hurt the Panhellenic community.

Call me pessimistic, but I could see people reporting every single little shirt that MIGHT have some improper implications. The sororities won't trust each other and will always worry that XYZ or ABC or whoever is out to get them.

[bruinaphi]

Originally posted by RUgreek
Chemerinsky Rocks! Lauradav, you are so lucky to have him as your professor. (Wish I could of had Freer for Civ. pro., but whatever..) I used his supplement to study my con. law class, so clear and easy to follow. Definitely recommend his book for anyone else who may take the course. (Ok, enough law school talk, nobody around here really cares

Not to hijack too much more, but I love Chem. I had him for Civ. Pro. first year as well and love his Federal Jurisdiction book. He also taught my barbri class on Con Law. He's the best.