Stupid, Stupid,Stupid! - Page 3

Kevin · #31 06-09-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by texas*princess
I'm not defending the newspaper (or whatever source it was) that put the fish on the front page, but I don't think it meant in any way that the death of a fish was more important than a human life that was lost...that is just the way the newpaper was laid out. Editors & layout people probably don't expect people to 'analyze' why they assembled the stories on the paper the way that they did.. but that's just my .02. If the fish story was controversial at the time (which it seems it is.. esp. in that area it happened in), of course they are going to put it in a place everyone can see so they can read about it.

Also, to be fair to the paper, an editor is going to want a front page story that sells his paper. A person dies.. well that happens all of the time and we're pretty familiar with it.

A *fraternity* kills a fish in the school pond? Well that's news. No one likes fraternities, everyone loves the fish. That sells papers.

IvySpice · #32 06-09-2003, 12:49 PM

KappaKittyCat said it best. The value of animals in this culture has to do with people's attachment to them.

The South Carolina mascot is a gamecock. This is a male chicken. Male chickens are fried up every day in the campus cafeteria, and nobody minds.

But if somebody stole and ate the mascot, people would be furious, and rightly so. The community has a relationship with that particular animal. They know him, they see him, and they will miss him when he dies.

That's what makes this incident disgusting. It's not about killing a fish -- people do that every day -- and it's not about destroying $700 worth of property -- people do that every day, too.

It's about the fact that anybody with half a clue could have realized that many people WOULD take this loss personally. It shows a total lack of regard for how other people feel. Obviously this fish meant nothing to the eaters...but if the article is true, then it should have been obvious to everybody on that campus that it did mean a lot to others. And these guys didn't give a second thought to the fact that their classmates cared about this fish like a pet, and thus that it was not replaceable. They went ahead and had their fun and screw the consequences to anybody else.

That's what makes me sick.

Ivy

BSUPhiSig'92 · #33 06-09-2003, 04:39 PM

Santa Cruz (CA) Sentinel
June 8, 2003

Protest staged at fraternity

By ROBYN MOORMEISTER
Sentinel staff writer

About 20 protesters gathered in front of the MTV-sponsored Delta Omega Chi
house on Lake Street Saturday afternoon to deliver a strong message: MTV
and frat boys, go away.

The protesters are upset with the fraternity for reportedly taking part in
the killing of a prized koi fish and for their alleged sexist behavior,
such as wearing T-shirts that say "Freshman girls: Get them while they’re
skinny."

Charges of misdemeanor grand theft and malicious mischief were filed Friday
against frat members Casey Loop and Matthew Cox. The two allegedly stole
the fish from a pond at Porter College, killed her and fed her to pledges.
An MTV film crew has been living with and filming the frat members at their
house at 354 Lake St. for a "reality show" to be aired in September.

Protesters say the frat’s spot in the limelight has been egging them on.

"It’s disconcerting that MTV is following these people around with cameras
and glamorizing sexual harassment and cruelty to animals," said protester
Kelah Bott. "That’s not what Santa Cruz is about. If they wanted to film
reality, they should be out here filming this (protest)."

MTV employees did not come out of the frat house Saturday to talk with
protesters who were chanting "Nothing to hide? Let us inside," and carrying
hand-painted signs with messages such as "Fry up a frat boy instead."

"Fraternities have never been a big part of UCSC," bystander and UCSC
computer systems employee Ramone Berger said. "Most students are surprised
when you tell them UCSC has fraternities."

Members of the fraternity were not at the house during the protest— they
had been told to stay away by the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office, said
deputy Sal Bisagno.

"It was an agreement that was made between MTV and the sheriff’s office,"
Bisagno said.

He and two other deputies stood on the sidewalk to oversee the protest,
which was not violent and lasted about two hours.

Copyright © Santa Cruz Sentinel. All rights reserved.

texas*princess · #34 06-09-2003, 04:42 PM

I definately agree that maybe MTV's precense has "egged on" these ridiculous guys.

From what I understood, this particular fraternity petitioned to be part of the show... and I think their behavior is a disgrace to the entire greek community.

Peaches-n-Cream · #35 06-09-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92
Santa Cruz (CA) Sentinel
June 8, 2003

Protest staged at fraternity

By ROBYN MOORMEISTER
Sentinel staff writer

About 20 protesters gathered in front of the MTV-sponsored Delta Omega Chi
house on Lake Street Saturday afternoon to deliver a strong message: MTV
and frat boys, go away.

The protesters are upset with the fraternity for reportedly taking part in
the killing of a prized koi fish and for their alleged sexist behavior,
such as wearing T-shirts that say "Freshman girls: Get them while they’re
skinny."

Charges of misdemeanor grand theft and malicious mischief were filed Friday
against frat members Casey Loop and Matthew Cox. The two allegedly stole
the fish from a pond at Porter College, killed her and fed her to pledges.
An MTV film crew has been living with and filming the frat members at their
house at 354 Lake St. for a "reality show" to be aired in September.

Protesters say the frat’s spot in the limelight has been egging them on.

"It’s disconcerting that MTV is following these people around with cameras
and glamorizing sexual harassment and cruelty to animals," said protester
Kelah Bott. "That’s not what Santa Cruz is about. If they wanted to film
reality, they should be out here filming this (protest)."

MTV employees did not come out of the frat house Saturday to talk with
protesters who were chanting "Nothing to hide? Let us inside," and carrying
hand-painted signs with messages such as "Fry up a frat boy instead."

"Fraternities have never been a big part of UCSC," bystander and UCSC
computer systems employee Ramone Berger said. "Most students are surprised
when you tell them UCSC has fraternities."

Members of the fraternity were not at the house during the protest— they
had been told to stay away by the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office, said
deputy Sal Bisagno.

"It was an agreement that was made between MTV and the sheriff’s office,"
Bisagno said.

He and two other deputies stood on the sidewalk to oversee the protest,
which was not violent and lasted about two hours.

Copyright © Santa Cruz Sentinel. All rights reserved.

Now there will be even more hostility towards greeks at UCSC. I hope that it doesn't negatively impact NBO and wishinhopin.

33girl · #36 06-09-2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92
The two allegedly stole
the fish from a pond at Porter College, killed her and fed her to pledges.

OK, I KNOW I'm going to be sorry I asked this, but how on earth do you tell a fish is male or female until it reproduces? I'm really really hoping that's how they found out this one was a she.

And I will go ballistic if I read one more article by a supposedly professional newspaper that uses the term "frat" unless it's a direct quote. Even though what these guys are doing isn't worthy of being called fraternity, it still makes the paper look exceptionally trashy and stupid.

texas*princess · #37 06-09-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
OK, I KNOW I'm going to be sorry I asked this, but how on earth do you tell a fish is male or female until it reproduces? I'm really really hoping that's how they found out this one was a she.

In some species of fish you can determine gender by the way they grow... I can't remember.. I think it was guppies? The males are usually the skinnier ones with beautiful tails.

I'm not sure about koi though

KappaKittyCat · #38 06-09-2003, 06:01 PM

My guess is that the paper was using the feminine pronoun simply because a long time ago someone named the fish Goldie and decided that it was a female.

I also bristle when I read the word "frat" in print.

wishinhopin · #39 06-09-2003, 06:08 PM

I think that some people are missing the concept of why this is so offensive. It isn't like, oh, they stole a fish, then they ate it, woop de do. They knew how important that fish was to people- I mean Santa Cruz is known for some wierd stuff, and this is one of those things. My guess is that they wanted to do something to essentially spit in the face of Santa Cruz counterculture- a, you hate us, well guess what, we hate you too, sortof thing. This is all just in theory. But my point is, everyone is so distraught largely because of the intent behind the action, not just because a pet fish was killed. And if anyone doubts that, you should go check out the memorial service they've had at the pond...people have left messages, memories they have of the fish, thoughts on the matter. There's been a whole poster thing to write on, and I'm pretty sure all the little kids who came up to visit the koi all the time did some sort of tribute also. It's all just stupid. And it makes me so mad because our school newspaper, the Santa Cruz Sentinel, the San Francisco Chronicle- all of these publications are lumping all greeks in with DOC. They talk about Santa Cruz never used to be like this, until all the fraternities and sororities showed up. And the presence of my sorority- and the majority of other Greek organizations on campus- has done nothing to ruin UCSC, but we're treated as though we have. To top all of this off, the fish was stolen from a pond at Porter College. UCSC is divided into ten colleges, each with residence halls or apartments and classrooms. You can have any major and live at any college, but certain stereotypes hold true. College Eight is for the preppies, Oakes is the ghetto, Stevenson is jocks, etc. It's like high school. Anyway, my point is that Porter College is alot of art students- and they also happen to be probably the most anti-Greek college, and they most vocal group of people against us. So for this to happen in their college is just an even huger backlash. I'm just ranting and raving now, thanks for listening everyone.

sugar and spice · #40 06-09-2003, 06:09 PM

According to a couple webpages I looked at, male koi are longer and slimmer than the females, with longer fins. The males and females also have different-shaped gills.

It's quite possible that someone just "decided" it was a she, though.

Texas-Gal · #41 06-09-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
While bad, this event is being blown far out of proportion. I'd be more likely to think they should have destruction of public property charges against them rather than animal cruelty though.

They haven't been charged with animal cruelty; they've been charged with misdemeanor grand theft for stealing the koi, and vandalism for the injury to the other fish in the pond they caused in the process. (see this LA Times article)

As always, I've got a full list of links to news stories here.

And the estimated value of this particular fish I've seen in every news article is $750, not $300. Supposedly, the boys reimbursed the school $650 for it already, although I don't think I could place a value on the life of a pet. ALSO: I think it's funny that brother Casey was interviewed by the press, when HE WAS THE ONE who committed the theft. So I'd have to say that any statements he makes are not the most reliable source of information, and may be partially (if not wholly) self-serving.

Kevin · #42 06-10-2003, 02:20 AM

I think if you'll check legal decisions that judge the value of a pet, you'll find that the value of a pet is not measured in emotional attachment. Therefore, the figure of $750, if that's what it was worth should be sufficient.

I have a feeling that their peers will exact a much greater punishment upon these fellas.

Texas-Gal · #43 06-10-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
I think if you'll check legal decisions that judge the value of a pet, you'll find that the value of a pet is not measured in emotional attachment. Therefore, the figure of $750, if that's what it was worth should be sufficient.

I have a feeling that their peers will exact a much greater punishment upon these fellas.

I think if you'll check my post, I made no representations about what the state of the law regarding the value of a pet is. I said, "I don't think I could place a value on the life of a pet." (emphasis mine) However, I would be glad to bring legal precedent into the discussion.

Basically, your theory about the state of the law is not universally correct, especially depending upon the particular jurisdiction and type of action.

There are two separate potential civil causes of action when a pet is intentionally killed: (1) financial recovery for the value of the pet, and (2) equitable relief. In the case of #1, your supposition is correct: the value is almost always the market value of the animal (plus any expenses or medical bills). However, in #2, your supposition is dead wrong: the emotional value of the pet, and the emotional damage to the owner, is not only often taken into account, but will likely be the main determinant of damages in many instances. Owners have successfully sued under a variety of theories in case #2 -- conversion, infliction of emotional distress, loss of companionship and trespass to chattels.

I'm not arguing that a lawsuit in this instance would be successful (or even meritorious), but the notion that the legal value of a pet is ONLY its replacement value is false.