Huh?

[sugar and spice]

I agree completely that, if they want to survive, fraternities are going to have to adopt rules and practices similar to those of sororities when it comes to risk management. Sororities did what they had to do to counteract the negative Greek stereotypes that started to take over in the 1970s -- fraternities, for the most part, did not. And now when you look around, 90 percent of the risk management violations probably are related to fraternities, not sororities. Same goes for the hazing violations. Just check this forum for proof -- how many articles are there about a sorority getting sued for hazing or alcohol violations?

The sorority system has actively tried to change and counteract the stereotypes, and they've done a decent job of it. I wouldn't say that the sorority system is in jeopardy. However, the fraternity system is, and sororities may end up going down with it if it goes.

[pinkyphimu]

i don't think it is just the attitudes and policies of fraternities that need to change....it is college-aged students in general. my freshmen year in college, there was a rally on campus....protesting the fact that the college was cracking down on underage drinking. they were actually hoping that the college would ignore that this was happening. the people in charge of this were NOT GREEK at all. i think "kids" think this is a rite of passage....it is the time to get drunk and be care free. i am not sure if having "dry houses" will make a difference. people in abc fraternity will have a party at an off campus house. they will try the "it was not an event" excuse, but legally the fraternity will probably be implicated. should fraternities/ sororities be held accountable for things that happen in residences of their members? they can monitor what happens in "chapter" houses, but how can they monitor what happens in every single member's residence?

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
And now when you look around, 90 percent of the risk management violations probably are related to fraternities, not sororities.

(Off the main topic, but worth mentioning.)

That's true, but to be absolutely fair about it, the Risk Management materials I get from the company that administers the self-insurance for us and about twenty other fraternities indicates that a fairly substantial amount of the claims for property damage at fraternity houses are caused by sorority and other women who attend parties and other events. Again, most are alcohol related.

Of course that's one reason fraternities are in such dire straits insurance wise and sororities aren't.

[Pi Kapp 142]

Hey all,
Sorry about the crappy title to this thread, I was tired and just made it a quick post. Finals time and all.

With regards to things like this and other lawsuits from families, this is now what we have to deal with. Fraternities have had to change before, they are going to have changing now if we want them to survive.

[damasa]

Originally posted by ktsnake
The scary thing is, without national organizations, then Greeks will really be a different type of creature!

No national programming, no national dry initiatives and best of all no one looking over your shoulder that says hazing is bad!

The legal system could end up doing INjustice here. A few individuals will come out with large settlements, the lawyers will get their cuts..

Does anyone think fraternities and sororities will disappear from the face of the Earth? Nope. We'll just have new ones that can do basically what they want, a la Sigma Chi Omega.

Wow dude, wow. There are greek orgs out there that don't belong to a national organization and they are a different type of creature, some or worse and some are better believe it or not. Just because an org doesn't have "national guidance" doesn't mean they can't be given direction or guidance in issues relating to dry housing, hazing and so on. Many locals have been thriving, some longer than some national chapters.


As for the new fraternities/sororites comment, you mean to tell me that because an org breaks from a national they are new? Nah, that's not the case at all......as for the Sigma Chi Omega, you can't even tell me that national chapters don't behave in a similar manner. If they didn't we'd never hear about hazing at certain chapters of certain nationals. Oh but we hear about it all the time...all the time. There are chapters that are local and national that feel they can do whatever they want.

[madmax]

Originally posted by ktsnake
The scary thing is, without national organizations, then Greeks will really be a different type of creature!

No national programming, no national dry initiatives and best of all no one looking over your shoulder that says hazing is bad!

The legal system could end up doing INjustice here. A few individuals will come out with large settlements, the lawyers will get their cuts..

Does anyone think fraternities and sororities will disappear from the face of the Earth? Nope. We'll just have new ones that can do basically what they want, a la Sigma Chi Omega.

What makes Sigma Chi Omega any different than Sigma Nu at Duke, Sigma Nu at Indiana or Sigma Nu at Radford?

[texas*princess]

Regarding ktsnake's post, I do not think he's saying locals are bad, and I certainly don't think he is trying to start a local vs. national war as to who is "better".

I think maybe what he was trying to say is that national GLO's have to "answer" to a governing body if they are doing something wrong. And it is also helpful that national GLO's have guidance and assistance with their individual chapters do get into a rut.

If something like this lawsuit did end up happening, entire organizations could possibly be targeted next. Fraternities and sororities will probably always exist whether they have national guidance or not, and like LXAAlum mentioned on page 2 of this thread, it would probably make GLO's go underground which opens up a new can of worms.

ktsnake, please feel free to correct me if I mis-interpreted your post.

[XOMichelle]

As much as this sucks, I would like to point out how redicilous the liability system is. You can close down a company because a handful of people made bad decisions?

[James]

Hmmm . . . mush as I admire and respect you DeltaAlum and LXAAlum (you two related ) I have to respectfully disagree with the thrust of your arguments here.

This is a random incident. I am not sure if there really is a good message or warning that is different than we have already gotten.

There is no real pertinent warning here unless its to shut down all social activities.

Originally posted by DeltAlum
"In addition to Sigma Phi, the Mississippi Beta Sigma Phi Epsilon Alumni Association is named in the lawsuit. The lawsuit seeks the corporate death penalty, the total assets of the national fraternity."

OK brothers and sisters -- it's time to be blunt again.

This is damn scary! But it isn't a possibility that hasn't been brought up here before.

Heaven help us all if this "corporate death penalty" is really imposed. The TOTAL assets of the national fraternity.

That means it will be gone. Over. Kaput. Finished.

It doesn't matter that drinking isn't only a Greek problem. It didn't even happen on campus!

Those of you who fight dry or damp housing -- those of you who disagree with your fraternity or sorority "dry" policy -- those of you who say this is a right of passage -- ARE YOU LISTENING?

If the fraternity loses this suit, it is GONE!

God forbid that it will happen -- but it could.

Then, the next time there is a Greek related fatal accident, another fraternity could be gone. Before long the whole system is gone.

So, for those of you who think that all of us who have been concerned about Risk Management and all of the things that go with it are "crying wolf" -- read the article on the other end of the link above.

If Greek Life is going to survive, we have to save it!

The only way to do that is to moderate our activities and obey the law.

Shit!

I hope that some manner of sanity prevails in the courts, and this doesn't happen -- but it easily could.

What an ugly wake up call.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by James
This is a random incident. I am not sure if there really is a good message or warning that is different than we have already gotten.

Thank you. In a way, you've made part of my point.

This message has been delivered before. But not enough people listened to it.

What makes this situation different is that the plaintiff and lawyers are not going for $1.5 million or $2 million -- they want everything, which will effectively kill the fraternity.

And now that they've paved the way, they won't be the last to try.

If they win, the repurcussions could be absolutely devastating.

By the way, did you ever find your little friend?

[CC1GC]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
As much as this sucks, I would like to point out how redicilous the liability system is. You can close down a company because a handful of people made bad decisions?

Thank you!
What's the basis for $10 mil. over $1mil. At what point does a monetary figure juxtapose a loss, such as a tragic death? In Canada, there's a cap of 100,000 for liability. In fact, having an insurance policy for canadian chapters does more harm than good. I have never heard of someone suing a facility or its proprietors because they broke their ankle stumbling on a few stairs. Ridiculous.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by CC1GC
Thank you!
What's the basis for $10 mil. over $1mil. At what point does a monetary figure juxtapose a loss, such as a tragic death? In Canada, there's a cap of 100,000 for liability. In fact, having an insurance policy for canadian chapters does more harm than good. I have never heard of someone suing a facility or its proprietors because they broke their ankle stumbling on a few stairs. Ridiculous.

In Canada there is national health insurance. In the USA a broken ankle or leg can cost someone a month's salary if they don't have insurance. Our medical care is very expensive even if you do have insurance.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by texas*princess
Regarding ktsnake's post, I do not think he's saying locals are bad, and I certainly don't think he is trying to start a local vs. national war as to who is "better".

I think maybe what he was trying to say is that national GLO's have to "answer" to a governing body if they are doing something wrong. And it is also helpful that national GLO's have guidance and assistance with their individual chapters do get into a rut.

If something like this lawsuit did end up happening, entire organizations could possibly be targeted next. Fraternities and sororities will probably always exist whether they have national guidance or not, and like LXAAlum mentioned on page 2 of this thread, it would probably make GLO's go underground which opens up a new can of worms.

ktsnake, please feel free to correct me if I mis-interpreted your post.

That's a valid interpretation. I don't mean that ALL locals are bad or that ALL national chapters are good. However, with a national organization to answer to it should be admitted that there is at least a higher degree of accountability for chapters -- also it would stand to reason that if a chapter closes, it's much more likely to find alum support to reopen several years later if it draws from a nationwide alumni base rather than a local one.

Locals on the other hand present a much less attractive organization to sue (far less assets, probably no foundation, etc.).

So could this be a case of legal looting while the gettin's good?

[Tom Earp]

James, WHAT????

Tom and Shawn are two of the most respected members of GC!

Where do you think a lot of Dues sent to The Natioanl Orgs go? Risk Management.

LXA was one of the first to profess dry houses. This does not mean that it always true as I am sure all of you are aware of in your own chapters.

At least one of the smartest things my Chapter did was to have designated drivers at the house to pick up Brothers and dates from bars or parties!

I am sure that Delta Alum along with my self and Hossier get e-m about the Greek Community. While this was brought up on another thread stating that the only thing put on it was negative, No It Is Not! Unfortunatly, the bad out weighs the good! Da, Risk Management!

In talking with the Ex. Sec. of LXA he made it very plain, that the Natioanls are not made of money just lie we are. He went so far as to make a commit that there may be mergers in the future among National Orgs. strictly because of the Risk Management Jonah that we carry around our necks!

Whomever made the post about SPE having money better figure out the math!

If this gets pushed through as a Law Suit, will Break them. Period.

If this happens, it is called the Domino Theory, we all fall!

The Media will be like a hounding pack of wolves calling for the heads of all Greeks!

Apologize for being so long, but this shit just pisses me off!

[steelepike]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I agree completely that, if they want to survive, fraternities are going to have to adopt rules and practices similar to those of sororities when it comes to risk management. Sororities did what they had to do to counteract the negative Greek stereotypes that started to take over in the 1970s -- fraternities, for the most part, did not. And now when you look around, 90 percent of the risk management violations probably are related to fraternities, not sororities. Same goes for the hazing violations. Just check this forum for proof -- how many articles are there about a sorority getting sued for hazing or alcohol violations?

The sorority system has actively tried to change and counteract the stereotypes, and they've done a decent job of it. I wouldn't say that the sorority system is in jeopardy. However, the fraternity system is, and sororities may end up going down with it if it goes.

I just did a search on google putting sorority closed for hazing and i had numerous pages put that phase on the page. So its not just fraternities.