Church Put out of Group for Baptizing Gay Men

[FuturePhD]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Mathematical theory states that you cannot prove a negative with a negative. To keep dragging in the KKK into debates is irrational and deflects from the issue at hand. The article was not about the validity of the Bible, nor about what fringe nuts DELIBERATELY REDEFINE the BIBLE as.

You claim me to be "self-righteous" which is far from what my posts state. The TRUTH of what I state is that I am a sinner just like a homosexual, not better or worse. Don't even say that I am a better person. That would be self righteous. What I don't do is ignore the TRUTH nor let my politics nor sentiments nor liberal feelings rebel against the TRUTH.

I am a sinner who is saved by GRACE of my LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST because I believe HIS WORD to be the ULTIMATE TRUTH. Not mine, not my political beliefs, not the whimsy of the local populace or not by meeting some really great and upstanding people who happen to be gay. Those of you like NinjaPoodle who have no use for religion or the others of you that question the validity of the Bible, your opinions are fine and I have no problem with them, however, you can't have it both ways. The CHURCH that professes JESUS should adhere to HIS WORD. HIS WORD is the BIBLE. Not what you think, nor what I think. We can't discard verses and doctrines when they don't benefit our sensibilities. There are a lot of things that I would like to feel less guilty about. But you know what, I freely accepted JESUS and vowed to accept his precepts and commandments. Are they hard to live with sometimes, yeah. Do I find myself being inconsistent sometimes, yeah...Can I be a weak and carnal Christian at times, yeah. But the essence of FAITH is believing in something greater than yourself and having a model and blueprint for RIGHTEOUS living. A CHURCH cannot BAPTIZE an ABOMINATION. BAPTISM is the ceremonial cleansing of sins from a past life for the BORN AGAIN BELIEVER to live in Christ. If you are going to keep celebrating and living a homosexual life (or other sinful life) it is obvious that no rebirth has taken place. Yes, murderers, theives, adulterers, liars, are all in the church, the key being that they have been born again and renounced that lifestyle in order to be Baptized (of course people backslide). Yet, if they fall or fail, that doesn't excuse anyone else's sin.

If man is greater than God, have it your way. If God is greater than man, then those of us who profess him have to abide by HIS words. To denounce the inspired word of God as simply being "written by men" is our attempt to be our own God. It is the pride of man and lack of humility that brings us out of harmony with HIM.

There won't be any Amens to my posts but thats okay.

You get one Amen from over here!

*going back to the lurker's bench*

[Sunkissd]

Hmmm...Interesting....

We discussed this topic in class a few weeks ago

This article helped us gain a black lesbian women's perspective

(scroll down and start at "Revelations" - in bold print)
http://www.femmenoir.net/Archive/lesbianl4121.htm

As a Christian, I believe every word of the bible. I'm convinced that as a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST it is my responsibility to show others compassion and Christian love. Who am I to turn my nose up at ANYONE? Why should we closed the doors of the church and deny homosexuals? God didn't deny me. We have all fallen short of His glory.

Last time I checked, Jesus died on the cross and rose on the 3rd day for ALL MANKIND. He died for ALL OF OUR SINS - EVEN HOMOSEXUALS...EVEN THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE.

Someone mentioned the validity of the bible to modern society. In the New Testament it says that women should not speak during church service, and that they should have a man speak on their behalf. Now come on ya'll...



I think Christians should spend more time researching the history as well as the message, to better understand the entire theme...

And that's all I have to say about that

[MaMaBuddha]

as the residential and only openly greek homosexual on GC, i think ... i have read the articles and the posts on this subject.

what's an abomination is the fact that the church denied these prospectives members. i won't get into the whole discussion of whether or not homosexuality is a sin and in my opinion i think no sin is really greater than the other.

until then there is only one being that can determine that and that is the lord above when it is our time to go.

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by MaMaBuddha
as the residential and only openly greek homosexual on GC, i think ...

or so you think....

Originally posted by MaMaBuddha
.......i won't get into the whole discussion of whether or not homosexuality is a sin.....

I FEEL YOU!

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by MaMaBuddha
in my opinion i think no sin is really greater than the other.

And this is the bottom line. There are no BIG and little sins. We AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL sin.

Fornicating
Homosexuality
Lust
Lying
Adultery
Gossip -- I am in trouble
Backbiting
Idolatry
etc.
etc.
etc.

Bottom line, not one of us has room in our life to judge us. Look at it this way, when JESUS died on the cross, he was next to a thief. Did he say, HEY GET THAT THIEF AWAY FROM ME!?!?!? Nope. For all we know that thief could have been homosexual.

Bottom line #2, ALL OF US NEED to be saved. Those homosexual men, the fornicators, etc. etc. None of us as heterosexuals are kept out of the baptismal pool. Murderers and rapists and child molesters get baptized and some of them keep right on sinning as murderers, rapists, and child molesters. But JESUS' blood still covers them and saves them.


Welcome back MamaB, I've missed you and I love you.


Let me carry my sinning self to church and get preached to.

[delph998]

No, there is no difference as BIG sin and little sin...but, we can't be PROUD in our sin-that's what God hates the most-those who are proud in their sin. So if these homosexual men that were baptized in the church were expecting the church to except them for who they are, yeah, they are in the wrong.

Once someone becomes a Christian, you develop a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. Which means that you'll read the Bible, come to church, pay your tithes, pray, etc. When you establish that relationship and learn the dos and don'ts, you're an unconditional Christian. Which means that you will NOT say, Lord, I'm homosexual, and you have to execpt me this way...or Lord, I'm an adultress, and you have to except me this way, because there's no big sin and little sin. That's not how it works in Christianity. God is love, but God is a God of judgement as well. Homosexuality is an abominiation to Christ. God will not condone that behavior if you have "this is just the way I am" mentality. This is not my theory...this is scripture, therefore, I'm not passing judgement. You can do as you please, but the scripture states in Leviticus, that DEATH WILL BE UPON YOU if you live that lifestyle. YOU MUST BE WILLING TO MAKE CHANGE! This includes everything that we, as Christians, fall short on. We all must be willing to make change!

This is my THIRD time editing this post. It's really bothering me that CHRISTIANS are so relaxed on this topic. If homosexuality is NOT an abomination (WICKEDNESS, God died on the cross for our sins, not our WICKEDNESS), why did God destroy the city of Sodom and Gomorrha? Jude 1:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. What does that scripture mean? In the city of Sodom and Gomorrha, people were living proudly in their wickedness. God does not like when we live proudly in our wickedness. This is not my opinion, this is not Delph998 passing judgement, this is a scripture that was read of the Bible, therefore, we need to abide by the guidelines.

[Honeykiss1974]

Not knowing anything about this particular churches baptism process its kind of hard to really form an opinion. My old church had a four week process in place before a person was officially baptized so that a person would know what is required and what is expected of them as a new beliver. I wonder did this church have something like this in place? And furthermore, how do we know that during this process, the men did not do this? According to the article, I guess you can assume that they still live together, but so far, each man has decided not to comment.

And why don't we get up in arms and screen out those people (whether saved or unsaved) that engage in pre-maritial sex who are wanting to join and come to church. HIV/AIDS is killing our community. Again, there is no sin above another, so we as believers need to be just as adament about educating those folks as well.

I'm not saying that homosexuality is not a sin, but only GOD will be the one to judge whether or not at the point in which those men made a committment to Him, if it was it real and done according to His will. As guess what.......my heterosexual self faces that same judgement.

[royalpinkastry]

WOW....after reading all of this I say:

1 Corinthians 10:23, all things are legitimate (permissible - and we are free to do anything we please), but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive (to character) and edifying (to spiritual life).

This scripture, out of the all the scriptures that could have been chosen, is so important to meditate on. We, as Christians, and humans in general, are FREE MORAL agents, meaning we have free will and the choice to live out we want to live. However, Deuteronomy 30:19 states that "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

One fails to realize that the lives that we choose to live has a large impact on the generations to follow. It is important to choose the lifestyle that God says to live, and that's a life of blessing. Walk according to his Word. Walk by the SPIRIT and not by the flesh that is so easily tempted.

We fail to realize that we live in preverse times and that the nation in which we live was built and founded upon the very CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES that many of you ignore and choose not to live by.

I know this may be off subject but it is important to realize that GOD sent his only begotten son to die for us. However, once he took on the form of humanity, he had a decision to make like all of us. It was an easier decision to make but yet he still agonized to the point that he shed drops of sweat. Why reject someone that took the pressures, the cares, the sins, the burdens, and the yokes for you?

How can you harden your heart to the truth and the very veracity of God's word? Homosexuality is a sin, which God hates, but his word mentions that there are other sins that he hates (read Proverbs "can't remember exact chapter & verse" but its the 7 things that are an abomination to God).

Yes God loves the sinner and hates the sin, so therefore, if you claim to be in Christ, it is your (our) responsibility to point them to the truth and continuously lift them up in prayer. Once we do that, their blood will no longer be on our hands, because we have done our part.

[CrimsonTide4]

Answer this: Have YOU Doggystyle repented from fornicating and CEASED all fornicating?

If not, then how are you, a baptized believer, any different from the homosexuals in the aforementioned article BESIDES THE OBVIOUS sexual preference?

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by royalpinkastry
WOW....after reading all of this I say:

1 Corinthians 10:23, all things are legitimate (permissible - and we are free to do anything we please), but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive (to character) and edifying (to spiritual life).

This scripture, out of the all the scriptures that could have been chosen, is so important to meditate on. We, as Christians, and humans in general, are FREE MORAL agents, meaning we have free will and the choice to live out we want to live. However, Deuteronomy 30:19 states that "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

One fails to realize that the lives that we choose to live has a large impact on the generations to follow. It is important to choose the lifestyle that God says to live, and that's a life of blessing. Walk according to his Word. Walk by the SPIRIT and not by the flesh that is so easily tempted.

We fail to realize that we live in preverse times and that the nation in which we live was built and founded upon the very CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES that many of you ignore and choose not to live by.

I know this may be off subject but it is important to realize that GOD sent his only begotten son to die for us. However, once he took on the form of humanity, he had a decision to make like all of us. It was an easier decision to make but yet he still agonized to the point that he shed drops of sweat. Why reject someone that took the pressures, the cares, the sins, the burdens, and the yokes for you?

How can you harden your heart to the truth and the very veracity of God's word? Homosexuality is a sin, which God hates, but his word mentions that there are other sins that he hates (read Proverbs "can't remember exact chapter & verse" but its the 7 things that are an abomination to God).

Yes God loves the sinner and hates the sin, so therefore, if you claim to be in Christ, it is your (our) responsibility to point them to the truth and continuously lift them up in prayer. Once we do that, their blood will no longer be on our hands, because we have done our part.

did we ever establish if you are .... ...Or you are just using pink in your username?

[delph998]

Doggy,


2) Jesus died on the cross next to two theives. Your point fails in that you left out the distinction that PROVES my point. The thief ACCEPTED JESUS as the SON of GOD before he died and asked for intercession on his behalf. He repented when presented with the TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE of who JESUS was at that moment. He did not die as a thief but as the last person "saved" by the living Christ. The distinction being that these two fellows in the article have no intention of REPENTING.

You explain things so well!

And this is exactly what's wrong with the state of the church, and our country. According to the Bible and Doggy's post, SINS are WEAKNESSES of HUMAN CHARACTER that we are born into. The things that GOD ABHORS are those WICKED things that we willfully do that we know to be against GOD's will. Again, Jesus died on the Cross for our SINS not our WICKEDNESS. And what God hates the most, is when we, CHRISTIANS try to make it right in the eyesight of God. God does not change...if it was an ABOMINATION (not sin) in Leviticus, in Jude, and many other Chapters, it's wrong now! That simple. Stop trying to make the church accept that! It's not right. HOMOSEXUALITY is an abomination to God. This is scripture.

Not too long ago, one my close friends told me that he was bisexual. I didn't cast him to the dogs. He's the one that has to give an account the Lord. I am not mean or biased to homosexuals. That's their business, but it's the Pastors place to inform his members about RIGHT and WRONG. And it seems as though many Pastors focus on prosperity. Being prosperous on earth is not going to get us in Heaven. We MUST live according to God's word.

[ladygreek]

I, too had decided not to respond to this thread because of the emotions it brings up in me. BUT here I go. All sins are an abomination to God. Everyone of us on the board are still sinners and we will be until we die. Why pinpoint a specific group?

When I see the number of people who are baptized (heck I was baptized at the age of 7, did I really know then what that meant--no, do I now--yes,) I have to wonder do you all really believe that all of them have given up their sins? Of course the answer is no.

What if the headline at been "Church banned from association for baptizing greedy people?" What would our responses have been then? It is easy to be self-righteous when the "sin" does not apply to us.

I won't even go into the number of gay pastors, ministers, preachers, etc. there are. Would you have me believe that none of them got their calling from God? How do we know that the very pastor who baptized us wasn't gay. If he or she was, does that make our baptism invalid?

We can all read the Word, and all take different interpretations from it. It happens from religion to religion, from seminary to seminary, from church to church. If your pastor gives one interpretation, then that is what you believe. But if you go to another church and that pastor gives another interpretation are we going to tell he or she that they are wrong? Catholics believe that during communion the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ. Protestants believe it is just symbolic. Thus orthodox Catholics will not allow Protestants to take communion with them.

For me, the bottom line is I am tired of homosexuality being used as an excuse to practice religious discrimination, intolerance, and persecution. That to me is an abomination in the name of God.

[delph998]

I definitely don't believe that God will call a gay minister. Why would He call someone that he detests in the Bible? Again, sin and abomination are two different things. How do you interpret that you will burn eternally if you're homosexual? How else can you interpret that? To me, the facts are there...there is no other way to interpret that.

[Blackwatch]

I think we need to define the terms of this discussion to get a better understanding of everyones' views on this issue.

First, What is Sin? I have seen on this board several broad definitions, but I think Doggeystyle's definition is intriguing. He states that "SINS are WEAKNESSES of HUMAN CHARACTER that we are born into". This seems to indicate that sin is an inevitable part of the human experience. I think we need to delineate here between the different types of sin. The sin that we are born into is the original sin said to be committed by Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen. 3). People individually do not commit this sin, this sin places us out of fellowship with God from birth (according to Christian Orthodoxy). These sins that we see today; greed, theft, murder, homosexuality, fornication, etc. are CHOICES that we make today. If we encounter the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we then should respond with a desire to choose to be righteous from that point on. This is where repentence begins, with the desire to do the right thing out of love for God. Now, do we actually do the right thing all of the time, no. This is the struggle that Paul has in Romans 7. This is also why we have GRACE.

Next, What does baptism do? Does baptism save us? No, baptism is a ritual commemorating the saved person's acceptance of the gospel of Truth. Can a church withold God's blessing of salvation by refusing to baptize someone? I think not. So, if these gay men are openly gay, refusing to confess (from the greek HOMOLOGOUS: to agree with God) and repent on the issue of homosexuality and refuse to submit their own will to God's will on this issue, then are they really saved, regardless if they are actually baptised or not? Now, does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin? I think so, but that doesn't mean that the Bible actually does teach this, it is merely my interpretation (though I haven't heard a convincing argument otherwise). So I can see how a true believer can honestly believe that the Bible is ambiguous on this issue. I just call on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the believer into the truth about this issue.

Finally, what are we to make of the distinctons between sin and words like wickedness, abomination, and willful unrighteousness? Literally, the word sin in the new testament is Harmatia-missing the mark. This connotates that you are aiming to do the right thing, but , due to immaturity, lack of discipline, misinformation, etc., you fail to actually do the right thing. If we agree that sins, all sins, are choices, then whether the sin that we choose is simply a sin to God or an abomination to God really is a battle in semantics. There were an abundance of things in the old testament that were considered abominations (Check Leviticus 19 for example) that we would consider harmless today. We regulate these things to cultural mandates of the time that generally are not applicable in our time and culture. We should seek the truth in Christ for our time, not to recreate ancient Jewish culture in our time. When the word abomination is used to describe these things, there's no implication that God is commenting upon the motives behind doing them as being more heinous than commiting the sin of say, coveteousness. I think what is happening here on GC is that some people have it made up in their own minds that somehow homosexuality is worse than other types of fornication, and are seeking to justify this stance with a view of scripture that reconcilies their own preconcieved notions. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus died for sins, but not abominations? Abominations are not defined as sins that people choose to do, then declare them to be righteous. I admit that this is a problem, but I dare not say that this is what the Bible means when it talks of abominations (maybe reprobate minds from Romans 1?, but not abominations). The issue with the reprobate was that they rejected the true knowledge of God and wrote their own law. I don't think that we can say that a person that understands the Bible differently on the issue of homosexuality is rejecting the total counsel of the Bible and therefore God. If these men from the article were doing that, they wouldn't want to even go to church or be baptized. I would think that they wouldn't even concern themselves with the whole thing and just go and be gay atheists or something.

Considering my first post in this thread, I can see how one can conclude that the Bible maybe ambiguous when it comes to the issue of homosexuality as we see it today. I don't think that this issue is easily resolved by quoting a few scriptures, considering the issues with translation, interpretation, and applicability of these scriptures. Honestly, I think the issue must come down to conscience, how does the Holy Spirit lead the sincere heart of a true believer on this issue. No, I do not think that this is "religion lite" so to speak, but "religion right" if you will, seeing that Christ's whole message was concerned with love and finding true righteousness OUTSIDE OF THE LAW, which means that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide every true believer into all truth. Will this truth contradict scripture, no, but it will fulfill the scripture, which means it will give us right understanding, which may contradict our previous understanding of scripture.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[ladygreek]

Originally posted by delph998
I definitely don't believe that God will call a gay minister. Why would He call someone that he detests in the Bible? Again, sin and abomination are two different things. How do you interpret that you will burn eternally if you're homosexual? How else can you interpret that? To me, the facts are there...there is no other way to interpret that.

Well daught, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I personally cannot get into the fire and brimstone idea of religion. I prefer to focus on my God being a loving and compassionate God who judges a person's heart. Thus, I refuse to believe that so many of my friends who happened to have been gay, and have died from AIDS are burning eternally in hell. And as for the uncalled gay ministers, priests, etc. Whew, then there are an awfully lot of them and have been since the beginning of time.

On another note (and this is directed at everyone,) we could probably start a whole another thread on the issue of homosexuality being a choice.