UD fraternity fights eviction - Page 3

madmax · #31 04-24-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSK480
Madmax, the point that KTSnake has been trying to make is that the TKE chapter was found guilty of these violations.

So what.

The court system and the campus judicial system already levied the punishment. The chapter paid its debt to society, which probably amounted to nothing more than a small fine. Then the chapter moved forward and continued to prosper. Now, several years later, the school with the help of the town wants to come up with additional punishment. That is bull#%#&.

Why should they lose their house? That has nothing to do with the violations.

Why should they lose their charter?

PSK480 · #32 04-24-2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax

Why should they lose their house? That has nothing to do with the violations.

Why should they lose their charter?

The house, is a zoning code. Say you and your buddies, just some friends from school, not brothers, wanted to rent property that is zoned as a fraternity/sorority house. The city is going to classify a group by their recognition on campus. No recognition means you can't rent it b/c it will not be used for what it is zoned for. Same thing as if I wanted to open say a convience store in my house. No haouse anymore, just a convience store. The house is zoned as residential, I wouldn't be able to open the store unless I got the property re-zoned. Also it states in the article that they sign leases, so yes it is their house by lease. But, as I stated before, I'm sure DE has the same type of law as PA and that is a chpater can not own property.

Why should they lose their charter? You are found in violation of that many policies and you can't tell me that violating that many policies means your upholding the ideals that the fraternity was founded on.

madmax · #33 04-24-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSK480
The house, is a zoning code. Say you and your buddies, just some friends from school, not brothers, wanted to rent property that is zoned as a fraternity/sorority house. The city is going to classify a group by their recognition on campus. No recognition means you can't rent it b/c it will not be used for what it is zoned for. Same thing as if I wanted to open say a convience store in my house. No haouse anymore, just a convience store. The house is zoned as residential, I wouldn't be able to open the store unless I got the property re-zoned. Also it states in the article that they sign leases, so yes it is their house by lease. But, as I stated before, I'm sure DE has the same type of law as PA and that is a chpater can not own property.

Why should they lose their charter? You are found in violation of that many policies and you can't tell me that violating that many policies means your upholding the ideals that the fraternity was founded on.

How is the house not being used as a fraternity?
The house is being used in the exact same matter as it was 30 years ago.
It is not like they are using the house as a conveniece store.

rushqueen44 · #34 04-24-2003, 04:25 PM

What he's saying is that the house is zoned to be used as a fraternity house.

If UD indicates that the fraternity is no longer technically a fraternity, then the house is no longer a fraternity house.

It turns into a rental property, just like an apartment. If it's not zoned to be a rental property, they have a problem.

Apparently, this house is not zoned as a rental property. Therefore, they can't rent out the rooms.

PSK480 · #35 04-24-2003, 04:31 PM

The school does not recognize them as a fraternity, so neither does the city. It's all about how the city sees them. This chapter is going to be treated as an underground by the university so the city probably sees them an undergrad.

Kevin · #36 04-24-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax
KT. How come all the Sigma Nu chapters that were accused of hazing the past couple of months were innocent until proven guilty but this chapter is guilty until proven innocent? I think you have a double standard.

PS. Isn't Sigma Nu one of the other underground fraternities at UD?

Don't know about if they're 'underground' usually HQ yanks the charter of an organization that's no longer recognized by the school. There are exceptions though.

And in all of the cases I was saying that in light of recent allegations, things that had *just* come up. In the case that we're talking about here they have been found guilty and the administration has yanked their membership. I don't actually know how any of those 4 cases you cited ended up panning out... If in fact they did what they were accused of, yes, even Sigma Nu's can get what's coming to them.

madmax · #37 05-11-2003, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSK480
The house, is a zoning code. Say you and your buddies, just some friends from school, not brothers, wanted to rent property that is zoned as a fraternity/sorority house. The city is going to classify a group by their recognition on campus. No recognition means you can't rent it b/c it will not be used for what it is zoned for. Same thing as if I wanted to open say a convience store in my house. No haouse anymore, just a convience store. The house is zoned as residential, I wouldn't be able to open the store unless I got the property re-zoned. Also it states in the article that they sign leases, so yes it is their house by lease. But, as I stated before, I'm sure DE has the same type of law as PA and that is a chpater can not own property.

Why should they lose their charter? You are found in violation of that many policies and you can't tell me that violating that many policies means your upholding the ideals that the fraternity was founded on.

PSK

Weren't most older GLOs actually started as secret off-campus organizations that had no formal ties to the university? Using your analogy are those fraternities not real since they didn't have university recognition? What about chapters in Canada where some schools do not recongize Greek life or chapters at Harvard, Alfred, UC Santa Clara?

If the initial fraternities on a campus existed before the IFC and those fraternities started the IFC then why would they need IFC recognition to be a real fraternity?

As far as this relates to TKE at UD:

1. The town does recognize TKE as a fraternity. The town let TKE move into the house and they lived there the whole year. Then with 2 weeks left in the semester the town makes up a new law and tries to evict them. That is bullshit.

2. The town has a noise ordinance that only applies to fraternities. If a fraternity has more than 2 noise violations then they can be evicted. The town considered TKE a real fraternity when they enforcing the ordinance.

I think TKE will win their lawsuit but even if they don't they will just move into a different house and continue to operate.

PSK. If a student graduates, would they have to be evicted from a student rental? Should a chapter be evicted if they have a non member live in the house like a cook, maid or a girlfriend?

Zoning isn't about who uses a property, it is about how a property is being used.

PM_Mama00 · #38 05-11-2003, 05:22 PM

Kt.... some of the things you said seem like talkin shit about their fraternity. Obviously someone flat out said that TKE pulls chapters all the time, so how can you be rude and make a comment like "when's the last time..." I'm sure you wouldn't be so happy if someone was making untrue comments about your GLO, cuz I know if someone was sayin that about Phi Mu I'd be PISSED.

The1calledTKE · #39 05-11-2003, 07:51 PM

I believe I have heard the courts are letting them stay in the house until the lawsuit agaisnt the city is decided.

xp2k · #40 05-11-2003, 07:56 PM

This has turned into a pretty heated thread and I have not read through all of it so I wont comment on this situation at UD.

I do not know whether the TKE HQ "pulls charters all the time", I do not work for their HQ (like a lot of people posting in this thread) and I am not privelegded to such inside information (like a lot of people posting in this thread).

But I do know that the Indiana University chapter just lost its charter a few weeks ago.

So....yes, they do close chapters (for those who wanted to know when the last time was that they heard of a chapter closing).

In defense of Tau Kappa Epsilon...they do have A LOT of chapters (more then anyone else). Maybe it seems like they pull a lot becuase they have so many.

If we took into account the "closing 10 chapters a year" information, that would still only be like 3-4% of their national roster.

I'm sure a lot of organizations close 4-5 chapters a year. For many groups (outside of the "big 6" of course), that would be roughly the same percentage.

GeekyPenguin · #41 05-12-2003, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xp2k
In defense of Tau Kappa Epsilon...they do have A LOT of chapters (more then anyone else). Maybe it seems like they pull a lot becuase they have so many.

If we took into account the "closing 10 chapters a year" information, that would still only be like 3-4% of their national roster.

I'm sure a lot of organizations close 4-5 chapters a year. For many groups (outside of the "big 6" of course), that would be roughly the same percentage.

That is a great point, xp2k...for example, our TKE chapter chartered in 1969, and they are Mu-Nu. That's a pretty impressive amount of chapters for the time, and I have no idea what they are on now.

KDShan · #42 05-12-2003, 12:38 AM

I was on campus last Sunday for a meeting with the chatper. I drove past the TKE house-looked the same-big red TKE on the side of the house. I drove by yesterday and the TKE is no longer there-just the outline of where they had been. Couldn't tell if anyone was in the house-but it was 2pm on a Sat afternoon. Didn't look like anyone was-but there was a grill out back (not on or anything, i just noticed it was there). The house is on the corner and I was stuck at the light-how i got a good look at it.

PSK480 · #43 05-12-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax
PSK

Weren't most older GLOs actually started as secret off-campus organizations that had no formal ties to the university? Using your analogy are those fraternities not real since they didn't have university recognition? What about chapters in Canada where some schools do not recongize Greek life or chapters at Harvard, Alfred, UC Santa Clara?

If the initial fraternities on a campus existed before the IFC and those fraternities started the IFC then why would they need IFC recognition to be a real fraternity?

PSK. If a student graduates, would they have to be evicted from a student rental? Should a chapter be evicted if they have a non member live in the house?

Madmax: I say more power to TKE IHQ if they want to run an underground chapter. I just think it will become a problem for them. Think about it, if you do something that is agaisnt the rules and you get busted and have a sentence levied by the courts and then get told by say your parents or faculty that you can just ignore it. Is what you did still not wrong and should you not abide by the ruling? What does this tell this chapter if TKE IHQ pulls their charter in the future for something? It's alright we can still run a TKE chapter, we did it before after breaking the rules and nothing happened to us. That's when you have a national org file cease and decist papers. Like what happened to TKE IHQ 6 years ago at my school.

I will not deny that the early GLO's were not recognized. But they also didn't lose recognition. I would also like to remind you that rules and laws change. IFC was created to level the field and try to have everyone operate in union. Recruitment and the like should be done together not seperately. NIC, NPC, NPHC, IFC etc were created to for GLO's to help each other and create rules for everyone to live by. If you don't follow the rules you don't deserve to play.

What do you think is easier for a National HQ to work with a school that recognizes chapters and chapters who are recognized or a chapter that is out there and doesn't have local restraints? Can an HQ assure that since there is not local recognition and control that they will step in and over see all that the University and IFC did?

The questions about evictions are up to the municipality who writes the zoning codes. If the code reads that all persons living in student rentals must be active students then yes they should be evicted. If it reads that all persons living in a chapter house must be a member then yes they should be evicted. If you want to break or bend one law you must allow for all to be bent or broken. Do you really think that a murderer should be let off just cause after he murdered someone he gave $1000 to charity and helped 12 old landies across the street in 30 minutes? Look at it that way. Should a Heroin dealer be let off because he put all of his profit towards charity? The law is the law, you have to follow it until it is changed. If you don't like it get it changed.

Optimist Prime · #44 05-12-2003, 05:34 PM

I think pulling the charter on a chapter just because the Host Institution says they don't like them is BLANK (I'm trying to find a word that describes it harshly enough without using profanity). Just because the Administration or the local townies don't want parties or whatever is ridiculos (spelling?). To the townies=if you don't want to hear party music or what not then don't live next to a frat house. You're in a college town, get used to it. Or leave, no one is forcing you to live there (apart form certain economical reasons) and you can leave anytime you wish. Its a free country. To the city offficals of Newark=You are the city officals of Newark. I've been to Newark and can assure you that you have bigger problems than a fraternity party that got out of hand or what not.

ooo...I thought of something for BLANK
...they don't like them is absurdilly malignant, and is an affront to the meaning of brotherhood.