What is THIS????? - Page 3

sugar and spice · #31 03-03-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MereMere21
I could really give a shit if someone wants to say the pledge or not - its their right not to say it, but don't take it away from everyone else simply because you don't believe in God, or A God or Allah or any other higher being.

And herein lies the dilemma:

If you remove the Pledge from schools, nothing bad happens. Nobody is made to feel left out because of it, nobody is ostracized, teased or threatened. And the people who really want to say it, believe in its values and love what it stands for can say it whenever they want -- at home, walking down the street, in church, at the mall, wherever they want. Nobody's "taking the Pledge away" from anybody else, because they can still say it whenever they want. Hell, they can still even say it at school if they want to! There's just no organized time for it where everybody is expected to stand up and say it.

If you force kids who don't believe in the Pledge to say it, people are made to feel left out, teased and possibly threatened.

So the safest solution -- the one most conducive to an uninterrupted learning environment -- is not to have the Pledge. That, I think, is the issue at hand. The schools aren't trying to be unpatriotic, they're trying to make it easier for teachers to do their job without having to worry about hurt feelings, breaking up fights, name-calling, kids calling other kids terrorists, whatever. And considering how many side issues beyond teaching that teachers have to deal with already, it seems fair that we should try to avoid adding more of them to the list.

Kevin · #32 03-03-2003, 08:12 PM

Under God was inserted into the pledge around the Harry Truman era. So just take it out!? What's the big deal?

MereMere21 · #33 03-03-2003, 08:16 PM

its been awhile since I've been in school so I really don't care

what pisses me off is how we can get all worked up in this country about the smallest little detail

take it out, don't take it out, I don't care - frankly I'm a little more concerned about our cowboy of a president leading us into a war

sugar and spice · #34 03-03-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smiley21
what do you mean it wasnt there?
anyway, the last thing i want to do is sound religious but this nation was founded on biblical principles like it or not. the founding fathers were faith believers and gave the founding of this country to God. to them it was because of God that this nation exists.

The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine

MoxieGrrl · #35 03-03-2003, 08:21 PM

I agree with you ktsnake. That way, no one can have religious issues with the pledge. If someone has political issues...fine. That something entirely different. I personally enjoy pledging allegance to the country, problematic as it is, that has given me so much freedom. Saying the pledge in public gives a sense of community...it makes me feel proud. I don't think I would die if I couldn't do it, but I like to have the chance, just as others would like the chance not to say it (and as I understand, it is very often not forced).

MereMere21 · #36 03-03-2003, 08:26 PM

ok I did not mean to offend anyone - I was actually being sarcastic in reference to whomever wanted to remove this phrase to being with. I do realize that if the situation were reversed and it was my belief that it bashed, then I would probably intiate the same action. My only point through all this was that its sad that in this day and time (oh so cliche) that we are so concerned with this tiny detail

I also in no way meant the founding fathers were christian men - hell Thomas Jefferson had many affairs and many children with different women including his slaves. All I meant by it was that they founded the country on Christian ideals - thats all, nothing more. They also incorporated checks and balances so on and so forth. I'm not about to defend men however that wouldn't even want women to vote if they were alive today.

I don't know when this thread turned into a bashing one but the sad fact is that there is never going to be a 'pledge' or anything else for that matter where someone isn't going to be offended

just take the damn phrase out it or don't say it at all

whoop de fucking do

smiley21 · #37 03-03-2003, 08:36 PM

Sugar and Spice- where did you get your quotes from? I actually heard adams, franklin,.....were all christians. whether they are or not is really the point anymore. why should 'under God' be taken out to make non believers happy? then you would make the believers unhappy.....no one wins...

if we are changing the pledge, can we get a new dollar bill, a new constitution.....better yet let us go back in time to 1776 and have america founded on man made principles

even if you did take out 'under God' there is still the problem with 'liberty and justice for all' where is the justice in this case.

my comment about things getting ugly...i just loathe these kind of topics, but i still want my voice to be heard

sugar and spice · #38 03-03-2003, 08:42 PM

Smiley, I found them here:

http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

Of course, as with all quotes, not all of them can be verified, but it seems fairly probable to me that at least a few of the Founding Fathers were not Christian. Deism, atheism and agnosticism were all more prevalent at the time than most textbooks would have you believe.

My guess is that while Adams, Franklin and the rest were raised Christian, they rejected it at some point in their adult lives because it no longer made sense to them.

I agree about these threads getting ugly, but we can't just avoid topics just because debates get heated -- they are important subjects even though they do make people angry. We're all adult enough not to hold grudges against people just because our political/religious beliefs differ, so I don't see the harm in discussing it.

smiley21 · #39 03-03-2003, 08:51 PM

i am just going to take your word for it that is there. i am not exactly wanting to read it. not because i am close minded (the truth is some people think my mind is way too open)
it is just my right.

I respect everyone's opinion like mine should be respected. If they want to take 'under God' out then whatever. its not like i say the pledge anyway. really 'under God' should have been taken out with the separation of church and state. furthermore, with this separartion, somebody needs to have a talk with old president bush cause his speeches and his position is getting way too spiritual/religious.

'under God' should have never been added in the first place if they want to take it out so much.

smiley21 · #40 03-03-2003, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonsagara
I mean exactly that - it didn't exist. The phrase "under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954 when a Roman Catholic organization urged the government to make the change.

i actually just saw on yahoo.com that the reason it was added in 1954 was to distinguish the US from the atheistic Soviet Union

jonsagara · #41 03-03-2003, 09:09 PM

Care to post the link?

smiley21 · #42 03-03-2003, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonsagara
Care to post the link?

just go to yahoo.com it is one of the top stories on the right hand corner

AlphaSigOU · #43 03-03-2003, 09:57 PM

Which is why any discussion of religion or politics is strengstens verboten (strictly forbidden) in a Masonic lodge room.

Masons are required to declare a belief in a Supreme Being (no declared atheist may become a Mason); otherwise the obligations taken at the Altar would not be considered binding.

At one point in the Entered Apprentice initiation ritual the Worshipful Master of the lodge approaches the candidate and asks him "in whom do you place your trust?", to which the candidate must reply freely, "In God" or the name of the Supreme Being he places his trust in. The Holy Book of the candidate's faith may be placed upon the Altar when he takes his Obligation, instead of the customary Holy Bible.

Personally, I have no preference whether the phrase 'under God' is or is not included in the Pledge of Allegiance. Nor do I mind the inclusion of the motto 'In God We Trust' in our currency.

P.S. Even though I am a baptized (but not a practicing) Roman Catholic, I'm forever barred from membership in the Knights of Columbus because I'm a Mason. (Unless the rules have changed.)

damasa · #44 03-03-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smiley21

even if you did take out 'under God' there is still the problem with 'liberty and justice for all' where is the justice in this case.

And where is the justice for those who do not believe in god or any god? They are being served an injustice by having to recite a Pledge with the phrase "under god" in it.

jonsagara · #45 03-03-2003, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smiley21
i actually just saw on yahoo.com that the reason it was added in 1954 was to distinguish the US from the atheistic Soviet Union

Probably the most compelling reason, but certainly not the only reason.