State of the Black Church

[DoggyStyle82]

REIKI

Thanks for your thoughts and I agree with you wholeheartedly. There are many passages, scriptures, and biblical doctrines that require serious intellectual debate and understanding. Too many unlearned preachers simply spout what they read without a deeper understanding.

I also agree with you Blackwatch in that we must understand time and place, who was speaking, what point were they trying to make, who was the audience, what were the socio-political, religious ethos of the time. The parables of Jesus summons the intellect and are open to interpretation that requires true discernment. The Book of Hebrews is a theological wonder that requires much knowledge and deep understanding. The Song of Solomon is an allegorical piece of literature. How is that to be interpreted?

I support the intellectual understanding of the Bible. What I vehemently disagree with is politicizing and socializing the Word to fit individual agendas, be they womanist, feminist, prosperity, Jehovah Witness, Catholic, and Mormon. They all have corrupted the word of God through false and flawed supposed "intellectual" interpretations. Just as Osama Bin Laden, the N.O.I, and 5 Percenters have corrupted Islam through false interpretation, my point is to be on guard when I hear people DELIBERATELY go against sound theology and undeniable scripture for their own personal aggrandizement. Anyone who will accept Tupacs and Biggie's lyrics as Gospel and then challenge the Word of God is a herectic and is playing an intellectual shell game.

Finally, many things in the Bible offer intellectual leeway, but other doctrines are crystal clear and concrete and only a political opportunist would challenge them, rewrite them, and dismiss them.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet
I know I probably will get screamed on but what is the deal with people speaking in tongues. It seems prevalent in our Black Churches but my point is this. It clearly states in the Bible that when the Disciples of Christ were touched by the Holy Spirit it descended upon them and he disciples were able to go out to the street and people from all countries heard them profess God in the TOUNGE of their native land. The true ability to speak in tongues is the ability to have everyone understand you. I am sorry but nowadays people speaking in tongues do not sound like anyone can understand them. Am I misinterpreting what tongues are supposed to be? Help a brother out!

Sphinxpoet

My understanding is that there are 2 types of "tongues" spoken of in the bible. One is "unknown" tongues, whick I understand to be a prayer language that is between you and God. If these languages are spoken in public Paul says we are to have interpretations so we don't bring confusion. Spiritual gifts are for the EDIFICATION of the body of Christ (the Church). If I don't understand what you are saying, how am I edified?

The other is "other tongues" which is what you spoke of. The Holy Spirit will give you the supernatural ability to speak another known language to witness to someone else.

[Blackwatch]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82

I support the intellectual understanding of the Bible. What I vehemently disagree with is politicizing and socializing the Word to fit individual agendas, be they womanist, feminist, prosperity, Jehovah Witness, Catholic, and Mormon. They all have corrupted the word of God through false and flawed supposed "intellectual" interpretations.

I see where one can say that Academics and/or theologians can twist scriptures to fit a political agenda, I'm sure anyone could. I see blatant examples of this with the homosexuality debate. Peter Gomes, the Chaplain at Harvard, who is a self described "African American, Republican, Homosexual , Christian" has a book entitled The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart in which he pretty much explains away any sin that is consented upon by adults in the name of really seeking truth in God rather than falling into what he calls "bibolatry" or idolizing the Bible. I clearly see the homosexual bias in his reading of those passages such as Romans 1 and the Mosaic laws. But, in the case of gender justice in the Church and the notion of "patriarchy", to note that their is patriarchy in the church I don't think takes much twisting of scripture. The fact that things like the scarcity of women in pulpits, the notion that historically when girls got pregnant out of wedlock they (and only they) had to go in front of most congregations in our community and be subject to shame and scorn, that many of the pastors of our churches will tell a woman to remain in a physicaly, emotionally, and spiritually abusive marriage for the sake of making the institution of marriage look good, and etc. tells me that there is still a lot of patriarchy in our churches. I think the "liberal" interpretation or careful study of the Bible will reveal that God is not patriarchal, but that we live in a patriarchal society, which God calls us (both men and women) to challenge with God's "light".

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82

...my point is to be on guard when I hear people DELIBERATELY go against sound theology and undeniable scripture for their own personal aggrandizement. Anyone who will accept Tupacs and Biggie's lyrics as Gospel and then challenge the Word of God is a herectic and is playing an intellectual shell game.

I don't think Dyson accepts Tupac's words as Gospel. If you read Holla if You Hear Me Dyson goes to great lengths to talk about the mysogyny, self destructive hedonism and crass materialism in Tupac's music. I think Dyson's references to the work of Tupac is to note the creative genius that Tupac possessed and the biting social commentary that some of his music makes about growing up as a Black man in America. I think Dyson finds this an important insight to the human condition, especially the Black man 's possible collective psyche and that we should at least give ear to the cries of our "ghetto" (for lack of a better term) youth when we sit down and read scriptures for possible answers to our suffering. Besides, as an academic , Dyson has to question everything-Tupac, the Bible, his own mama. Don't get me wrong, most times I think Dyson praises Tupac too much and reads way more into Tupac's music than is actually there, but that is what makes him (Dyson) exciting and gives us an opportunity to love God with "all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind" by thinking about some of Dyson's ideas.
BlackWatch!!!!!!

[shadrach]

To Doggystyle: Why do you consider prosperity a doctirne that is "man first...or set to please or appease man's carnal sensibilities"?

To Sphinxpoet: I have a different understanding of speaking in tongues. My understanding is that there is a difference between the gift of tongues and speaking in tongues. An interpretation is needed for the gift of tongues, not speaking in tongues. Paul, in 1 Corinthians, is talking about the gift of tongues and how the Corinthians were confused between the two. The gift of tongues is only directed by the Holy Spirit...he turns the gift on and off. The Holy Spirit will not provide the gift of tongues w/out an interpretation. A gift from God is not for you, it's for other people. That's why Paul said it is not edifying to the congregation unless there is an interpretation. One can be crooked, have extreme character issues, and still have a gift from God. God is the only one that gets the glory for the gift He gave you because He is the one that turns it on and off.

Speaking in tongues is a personal communication with God and is different from the gift of tongues. One can speak in tongues anytime he/she wants to. The important thing to remember is that it's something personal between you and God. Therefore, the volume of your voice and how much saliva you spit has very little to do with it....it's a heart issue. Think about it, when you share something personal with someone you don't scream it aloud for everyone to hear...it's personal. No one needs an interpretation but you. That's why Paul said that he would pray with the spirit and also with the understanding (asking God for the interpretation) as well as sing in the spirit and sing with understanding. He also mentions that he speaks in tongues; however, when he is in public teaching/instructing others he would rather not speak in tongues because that's his personal communication with God...it is not edifying to those who he is teaching. However, if God has a message for those he is teaching and equips Paul with the gift of tongues and an interpretation, then the congregation now has understanding.

When I speak in tongues at church it's between me and God...and the same goes for the person next to me and the person three seats down. Neither one of us is looking for an interpretation of the others prayers...it's personal.

[Jamal5000]

When I look at the Black church today, I see a lot of members who do not study their bible thoroughly.

Many Black Christians don't even read it everyday. It just sits on a shelf and collects dust. "I ran out of time" comes out as a supposedly valid reason, but you cannot run out of time to get up and go to work to earn your income. The power behind our ability to do that rests in God. God rests in the Word. Running out of time to study God's Word prevents the Black church from increasing their understanding of what God wants them to do for Him.

If we do not learn the word and commit it to memory, then it will not stay with us in moments when we may need to apply them.

In Christ,
Reginald

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Blackwatch
But, in the case of gender justice in the Church and the notion of "patriarchy", to note that their is patriarchy in the church I don't think takes much twisting of scripture. The fact that things like the scarcity of women in pulpits, the notion that historically when girls got pregnant out of wedlock they (and only they) had to go in front of most congregations in our community and be subject to shame and scorn, that many of the pastors of our churches will tell a woman to remain in a physicaly, emotionally, and spiritually abusive marriage for the sake of making the institution of marriage look good, and etc. tells me that there is still a lot of patriarchy in our churches. I think the "liberal" interpretation or careful study of the Bible will reveal that God is not patriarchal, but that we live in a patriarchal society, which God calls us (both men and women) to challenge with God's "light".

You seem to believe that "patriarchy" is a negative. So does that mean that "matriarchy" is good? There is nothing wrong with doing things as God has ordered. When man tries to be God and re-order things, he screws it up. There are plenty of women in pulpits and plenty with their own churches and ministries. Women have always played a pivotal role in Christianity and while in the Black Church, their roles have been traditional, that does not make it a negative.

I don't think Dyson accepts Tupac's words as Gospel. If you read Holla if You Hear Me Dyson goes to great lengths to talk about the mysogyny, self destructive hedonism and crass materialism in Tupac's music. I think Dyson's references to the work of Tupac is to note the creative genius that Tupac possessed and the biting social commentary that some of his music makes about growing up as a Black man in America. I think Dyson finds this an important insight to the human condition, especially the Black man 's possible collective psyche and that we should at least give ear to the cries of our "ghetto" (for lack of a better term) youth when we sit down and read scriptures for possible answers to our suffering. Besides, as an academic , Dyson has to question everything-Tupac, the Bible, his own mama. Don't get me wrong, most times I think Dyson praises Tupac too much and reads way more into Tupac's music than is actually there, but that is what makes him (Dyson) exciting and gives us an opportunity to love God with "all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind" by thinking about some of Dyson's ideas.
BlackWatch!!!!!!

The classic trick of the devil. Out of the 90% evil, debaucherous, loathesome lyrics, lifestyle, and criminal activities of Tupac, find the 10% that offer some insight and conscience, and exalt that. NOT!!! A tree is known by its fruit. Yes, some wayward, leftist academicians find something redeeming about Tupac's Thug Life but that doesn't legitimize anything. Again, Dyson is a ish-starter who say alot of left-field things simply to draw attention to himself and he is in love with the sound of his own voice. How contrived is it for him to drop lyrics from the two most beloved and street-cred having rappers? He challenges strongholds just for the self-promotion. "Boy, did you hear what Dyson just said?" "Did you see where Dyson just ordained a woman and a homosexual over the protests of the church and the congregation?" Everywhere Dyson has gone, he starts ish and promptly leaves town. Every church and every university. He is a $5 con man in a $10 game and as soon as his bluff is called, he cashes in and rolls. Alot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

REIKI::: just as you said, people have their own agenda and will falsely interpret the Bible to fit those biases, but when faced with such, read the directions. Most Biblical doctine is solid and incontrovertible. It says what it says. Man just wants to create leeway so that he can lie and cause confusion.

[delph998]

I think this "name it and claim it", health and wealth theology is one of the most damaging today and could not believe no one said anything to her.


This is by far, the best thread on GC right now! I watched this as well, and I have a lot of mixed opinions about everything. But to respond to what someone said, you can't NAME IT and CLAIM IT as it relates to health and wealth. I don't know why, but it seems like a lot of pastors have gotten off of speaking on sin and living as righteously and have moved to this living prosperously on earth. If we could name it and claim it, why would there be a need for a higher being? I don't understand it...

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by REIKI
Why not find insight in the 10%? It could help to explain the 90%, and maybe save someone from having to experience the 90% in order to find insight in the 10% ... just something to think about.

You are correct, a tree is known by its fruit; sometimes the fruit is sweet but looks bitter, and sometimes the fruit is bitter and looks sweet.

Tupac's "Thug Life" legitimizes many things to me. Everyone's day-to-day struggle may not be dogging physical bullets, narcotics, and police officers, but everyone struggles with something ... and some people struggle to his extremes to find meaning and spiritual "enlightenment".

Maybe I can identify with Dyson because I myself have been labeled a "ish" starter, when in reality all it is freely exercising the mind and will God gave us. Dyson may very well be a con man, but like Tupac says in his lyrics, even Jesus himself was labeled as such, so that's not really saying much ...

Very clever argument REIKI!! Sounds nice and thought provoking. I'm glad that you, Tupac, and Michael Dyson are kindred spirits but I would presume that you are more sincere than either of those two. Just one thing. About finding the good in the 10% and dismissing the 90% of drivel. I guess that will suffice for those of like mind or the truly desperate. I guess whatever it takes to reach someone or find some inspiration all depends on the receptiveness of the listener. Oh.....I'll take my opinions on the life of Jesus from someone with a little bit more moral authority than Tupac. Its ok to be an ish-starter if you have validity, nothing wrong in that, righteouness is its own justification. Thats why Jesus didn't run from the cross.

[Blackwatch]

Our Men's fellowship will be discussing the issue of Gender Justice in the church and why many black men do not go to church with a fellowship this Saturday morning. To the ladies on this board, what are somethings you would like to ask some men, men like deacons and pastors, about how and why they think what they think about women pastors and teachers in the church? Also, men, what are some things you wanted to ask a pastor but yet were affraid to ask? I'll ask the questions this Saturday and post them here.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[delph998]

Did anyone see Tavis Smiley forum on the black family on C-Span? Post your thoughts!

[TonyB06]

Originally posted by delph998
Did anyone see Tavis Smiley forum on the black family on C-Span? Post your thoughts!

D998, I'll have to catch the re-broadcast of this program. But give us the highlights. I'm generally a fan of Tavis Smiley and his political/empowerment work, although I do get tired of all the talking symposia, all the time.

...what was said, and more importantly, what was planned to be done?

[Honeykiss1974]

Since I didn't see Tavis's forum on The Black Family...

I was watching Praise The Lord Friday and a minister was speaking about the black church and how we have lost our basic and foremost purpose - winning souls to Christ and having the HEART of Christ.

As someone stated earlier we are SO concerned with prosperity and telling folks that "by sowing into our ministry God will answer your prayer" stuff (I am not talking about tithing) that we have forgotten our true purpose.

I believe we have also let jealousy (aka the devil) set up show in some on our churches as well, although this seems to be a problem that plagues our community in many different avenues other than the church (men, women, sorority, fraternity, classes, etc.). Churches should band together and build shelters for the homeless or low income housing for the poor without worrying about "which church or pastor gets the glory or the praise for the idea" (when we all know that it will be GOD who will be exalted).

If we want the church to be the cornerstone of our community as it one was, we need to lay aside all this petty mess and be about the business of Christ as He instructed us to be.

[TonyB06]

Insightful post, HK74, and I agree with you. I don't watch too much "tv church" anymore. There are many churches in my city, including my own, that are holistic in nature, teaching/preaching the message of salvation for the soul, and helping make daily provision for the body/mind.

Of course, there are legitimate television ministries, but I grow tired of having to wait 10, 15 minutes into the message before anybody says anything about Jesus. In these days, I think people should be real careful whose ministry they sit up under; and always test what we see/hear in light of scripture.

[ARTIC-U-LATE]

Phirst, I would like to say Thanks...to brother Blackwatch for this thread.

Personally, I must admit that I have strayed away from my church home. 1. I have moved away from my childhood congregation and I have not found another "home" yet. 2. Often I work on Sun. Morning, because I am in the Higher Education Administration Field. Regardless, I must also admit that I am unhappy with the unchristian-like behavior that I have witnessed on the behalf of church leadership around the country. The mismanagement of funds, the say one thing and do the other occurances are sad. It is just disturbing. In addition, in Cleveland (where I am from) a member of my own church was on the news last month because of his past record as a child rapist. He lied about his record and was caught.

I would like to mention that though I don't wholeheartedly trust church leadership, my faith has remained steadfast, for men are fallible. The wrong will be corrected.

[TonyB06]

I hear you, Bro. Artic-u-late, but I'm sure it's not your intention to indict all church leadership "around the country"?

I just think that many churches/leadership that are actually favorably impacting lives, don't have the time, or in some cases the inclination, to be on television.