Prejudism

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by hannah6782
it seems to me racism is being looked at in the wrong way,
for example, if i met a german person, i wouldnt immediatly hate him for the holocaust, i wouldn't think oh he caused millions of my people to die, he is to blame. if he later said something anti-semetic, that would be a different story, then i would have a reason to dislike him not his entire culture, maybe some people do but i dont and i think the same can be said for black and white issues in this country, an african- american who doesnt like any white people because of what happened a couple hundred years ago at least is racist, because if that person then does something that is discriminating against you because you are of another ethnic group, then that person is to blame not everyone who is white. i just think that it is sad that people have so much aggression towards one another, if we want everyone to be treated equally then truely everyone should be treated equally no benifits, no special treatment, just equally.

-hannah

I don't like your parallel. It's just a different situation, and to me, equating the situation of Jews and black people just never works. Too many differences for all our similarities to invite a real, FAIR comparison.

And black people faced a lot more in this country besides slavery. Jim Crow? Grandfather clauses? lynchings? Almost all those things are still happening!

There are a lot of black people who don't like white people because of their interactions with whites. They don't like being condescended to, they don't like being discriminated against, and that has been their personal experience. There are a LOT of black people (in my mothers generation) who can remember not being allowed to eat at the same restaurant, and who can remember what it felt like to be TOLD that they were inferior.

That doesn't go away in a generation. That doesn't necessarily go away in two. The world is not an equal place. It has never been an equal place. It is our job as citizens to make it better, and to do it by making ourselves more aware of the FACTS of how things are, instead of how we wish they were.

Then we change them.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by neicy81
I never stated nor intended for this to seem as if I "hate" white people.If I hate someone, I hate them enough to kill them. And yes, I have white friends.

However, this discussion was brought up on other website. A user created a forum to vent their frustrations titled"What Pisses You Off About White People" and a white person comes in the fourm and cries racism every day. I still say that blacks cannot be racist. You don't know any black person that had attributed to the downfall of any whites.

Regarding changing the status quo, I beg to differ.Most are too comfortable benefitting from white privilege.

There are a LOT who benefit and never, ever question that privilege. You're right. A LOT of them are on this website too, lol. But not everyone here is like that, and not all are like that.

I guess you just have to have some sort of faith in the best of humanity, or that there is a best of humanity, and that things will change. Look how far we have come in a generation, black and white, in our attitudes and the ways we interact. Twenty years ago, we would not be having a conversation like this, or learning about one another because a lot of attitudes that we are challenging were taken for granted.

[hannah6782]

dont get me wrong, i dont think that blacks dont have obsticles to overcome or what they went through is something that no one should ever have to go through, i think prejudice and racism are horrible things, and i think that its hard for someone like myself to understand it despite trying, when i have never personally had any type of problem with this, i think that like many people said earlier it all comes down to your point of view on racism and prejudice. and while it is idealistic i still hope for an equal society someday.
-hannah

[neicy81]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84


There are a LOT who benefit and never, ever question that privilege. You're right. A LOT of them are on this website too, lol. But not everyone here is like that, and not all are like that.

I guess you just have to have some sort of faith in the best of humanity, or that there is a best of humanity, and that things will change. Look how far we have come in a generation, black and white, in our attitudes and the ways we interact. Twenty years ago, we would not be having a conversation like this, or learning about one another because a lot of attitudes that we are challenging were taken for granted.

I completely agree lovelyivy.

[neicy81]

Originally posted by hannah6782
dont get me wrong, i dont think that blacks dont have obsticles to overcome or what they went through is something that no one should ever have to go through, i think prejudice and racism are horrible things, and i think that its hard for someone like myself to understand it despite trying, when i have never personally had any type of problem with this, i think that like many people said earlier it all comes down to your point of view on racism and prejudice. and while it is idealistic i still hope for an equal society someday.
-hannah

Hannah it's hard for a lot of people to understand. But as long as you keep an open mind, then you're ok.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by neicy81
I never stated nor intended for this to seem as if I "hate" white people.If I hate someone, I hate them enough to kill them.[/

- This doesn't seem irrational to you? I don't want to kill anyone. I want to be able to live my life in peace and never have to deal with people dying as a cause of my personal feelings in regards to them. If it were a matter of defending myself, then that is a different story.

And yes, I have white friends.

- I'm not sure why people always throw comments like this in. It's a way for us to justify our reasoning in the eyes of others. It somehow creates more validity in the argument I suppose. A good analogy is having a famous black politician endorse eliminating affirmative action. Just because you have white friends does not create an all powerful solidification to your argument.[/B]

However, this discussion was brought up on other website. A user created a forum to vent their frustrations titled"What Pisses You Off About White People" and a white person comes in the fourm and cries racism every day.

- I believe all people are good at heart. According to my rationale, most people don't randomly complain (notice I said most, there are some who I will never understand). Take their opinions to heart. Sometimes if you listen to them, it might just help later on when you want others to listen to you. If they cried racism, listen to them. Understand where they are coming from...talk to them and don't simply reject them.

I still say that blacks cannot be racist.

- Listen, I can't convince you of my viewpoint and nobody else on this forum can. I knew that before I even posted this. But I can say this. Somehow you offer a different viewpoint of racism. Perhaps what you are doing is playing a game of semantics. The standard version of what racism means is in the dictionary. However, I take it that since a "white" person is largely responsible for the writing of that book, then you can reject this definition as you are a black person. To me this seems as logical as saying I reject the common definition of the word bagel. If no mention is put in the dictionary that bagels can only be made in NY, then I find that definition invalid.

You don't know any black person that had attributed to the downfall of any whites.

- Your viewpoint all too easily breaks down levels and classes and groups everyone together. Do you really feel that no black person has ever attributed to the downfall of ANY whites?? I assume black person is used in the singular tone, in that case may I propose we look at Al Sharpton. Next, I shall assume that downfall is equivalent to somehow hurting someone so as they lose their status or something that they once were priviledged to have before. Now I can easily point to Steven Pagones as someone who went through a downfall assuming once more that your use of "any" refers to a single white person. Now the fact that Tawana Brawley and Sharpton were able to use POWER from the courts and of public opinion to hurt an innocent white man should in fact be a clear example of racism. But I assume that you will also argue that it must be looked at on a national level. That isn't right. For someone to totally classify this country without any regions is wrong. I have no idea what it is like to be in the South. I couldn't even comprehend much on lynchings on the level that you can. I have no idea what it's like to be somewhere that blacks fear living. I wish I could only understand, but I don't think that is ever a possibility for me. But take for example sports. For someone to state that Americans are really enthusiastic about car racing is wrong. I never even realized people enjoyed watching a car go around a loop repeatedly until I left NY. It is something that is much more popular in certain regions. This is the same with fashion and attitudes as well. For you to believe that a man who lives on a ranch in Arkansas and feels minorities are plotting to take over the government is the same as a man who lives in a much more integrated neighborhood are the same is wrong. You have to be keenly aware of your environment and differences that exist at other levels. In parts of ny and nj, for example, blacks carry an overwhelming amount of power within the systems model and do at times present complexities of joint action within the political arena.

Regarding changing the status quo, I beg to differ.Most are too comfortable benefitting from white privilege.

I personally don't think you hate white people, just like you say. I do however think it's always good to listen to people, and to hear them out (there's a difference). Take care.

-Rudey

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by neicy81
I never stated nor intended for this to seem as if I "hate" white people.If I hate someone, I hate them enough to kill them. And yes, I have white friends.

However, this discussion was brought up on other website. A user created a forum to vent their frustrations titled"What Pisses You Off About White People" and a white person comes in the fourm and cries racism every day. I still say that blacks cannot be racist. You don't know any black person that had attributed to the downfall of any whites.

Regarding changing the status quo, I beg to differ.Most are too comfortable benefitting from white privilege.

"If I hate someone, I hate them enough to kill them." That's sad.

[neicy81]

Originally posted by Cream


"If I hate someone, I hate them enough to kill them." That's sad.

I can see that I have to break down everything I say. I meant that "hate" is such a strong word for me, that in order for me to hate someone I would want to kill them. That does not imply that I would act upon it, but that my dislike for them is so strong. DO YOU GET IT NOW?

[neicy81]

Originally posted by Rudey


I personally don't think you hate white people as you say. I do however think it's always good to listen to people. Take care.

-Rudey

I NEVER said I hated whites. Where did I say that hun?Regarding having white friends, I'm not using that as a justification for anything. People will throw that question in to make it seem as if I have a prejudice against whites that keeps me from getting to know whites.

Regarding that "good at heart" bit, I did "listen" to them. But do I have to agree? Umm, HELL NO.


Key fact to note:Lynchings don't all occur in the south.Please digest this fact.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by neicy81



I can see that I have to break down everything I say. I meant that "hate" is such a strong word for me, that in order for me to hate someone I would want to kill them. That does not imply that I would act upon it, but that my dislike for them is so strong. DO YOU GET IT NOW?

THAT'S STILL SAD!

[neicy81]

Originally posted by Cream


THAT'S STILL SAD!

Actually, what's sad is you have no damn clue at all what I meant.Please take reading comprehension classes.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by neicy81



Actually, what's sad is you have no damn clue at all what I meant.Please take reading comprehension classes.

Actually, I know exactly what you meant. Who do you think you are to be so rude to me when all I wrote was three little words?

[neicy81]

Originally posted by Cream


Actually, I know exactly what you meant. Who do you think you are to be so rude to me when all I wrote was three little words?

Sorry. I have a smart "mouth".

[Rudey]

Originally posted by neicy81



I NEVER said I hated whites. Where did I say that hun?Regarding having white friends, I'm not using that as a justification for anything. People will throw that question in to make it seem as if I have a prejudice against whites that keeps me from getting to know whites.

Regarding that "good at heart" bit, I did "listen" to them. But do I have to agree? Umm, HELL NO.


Key fact to note:Lynchings don't all occur in the south.Please digest this fact.

I didn't say you hated whites either. I forgot to put in a comma and that seemed to cause some confusion. Either way, I edited my comment to reflect that you didn't hate whites. And what people have thrown that comment about you having no white friends in? It seems you have already made assumptions. Discussions should not involve "preemptive strikes". The fact that you are throwing that in is to justify that you don't have a prejudice, and you're comments are not biased.

You listened to someone but did you hear them out? No you chose to find what they said as insignificant. Yes, you have the freedom to do this but don't be surprised if, later on, others act in the same manner towards you.

And key fact to note: I never said lynchings all occured in the South dear [I decided to throw the "dear" in there since you called me "hun" ].

Second key fact to note: Insults accomplish nothing. On top of that, a lot of what you write is written with a haughty attitude which people aren't appreciative of. You are free to express your opinion but telling someone to take reading comprehension classes is wrong and you have no right to do that. If I told you to take reading comprehension classes because you assumed I was saying lynchings only took place in the South, would that accomplish anything for me? No. We all have opinions and voices - generally insults prevent people from understanding each other. Let's all try and keep things civil.

-Rudey

[BLUTANG]

NOT TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE...

i just found the course this discussion took a bit interesting, and i recieved an e-mail today along the same lines. It's a long one so please read (when u have time) and think about it. Comment if you wish.


White Frights

The article below, taken from the British Guardain, is excerpted from Michael Moore's new book, "Stupid White Men"

Michael Moore writes....

I don't know what it is, but every time I see a white guy walking
towards me, I tense up. My heart starts racing, and I immediately
begin to look for an escape route and a means to defend myself. I kick myself for even being in this part of town after dark. Didn't I
notice the suspicious gangs of white people lurking on every street corner, drinking Starbucks and wearing their gang colours of Gap turquoise or J Crew mauve? What an idiot!

Now the white person is coming closer, closer - and then - whew! He walks by without harming me, and I breathe a sigh of relief.

White people scare the crap out of me. This may be hard for you to understand - considering that I am white - but then again, my colour gives me a certain insight. For instance, I find myself pretty scary a lot of the time, so I know what I'm talking about. You can take my word for it... If you find yourself suddenly surrounded by white people, you better watch out. Anything can happen. As white people, we've been lulled into thinking it's safe to be around other white people. We've been taught since birth that it's the people of that other colour we need to fear. They're the ones who'll slit your throat!

Yet as I look back on my life, a strange but unmistakable pattern
seems to emerge. Every person who has ever harmed me in my lifetime - the boss who fired me, the teacher who flunked me, the principal who punished me, the kid who hit me in the eye with a rock, the executive who didn't renew TV Nation, the guy who was stalking me for three years, the accountant who double-paid my taxes, the drunk who smashed into me, the burglar who stole my stereo, the contractor who overcharged me, the girlfriend who left me, the next girlfriend who left even sooner, the person in the office who stole cheques from my chequebook and wrote them out to himself for a total of $16,000 - every one of these individuals has been a white person. Coincidence? I think not.

I have never been attacked by a black person, never been evicted by a black person, never had my security deposit ripped off by a black landlord, never had a black landlord, never had a meeting at a Hollywood studio with a black executive in charge, never had a black person deny my child the college of her choice, never been puked on by a black teenager at a Mötley Crüe concert, never been pulled over by a black cop, never been sold a lemon by a black car salesman, never seen a black car salesman, never had a black person deny me a bank loan, and I've never heard a black person say, "We're going to eliminate 10,000 jobs here - have a nice day!"

I don't think that I'm the only white guy who can make these claims. Every mean word, every cruel act, every bit of pain and suffering in my life has had a Caucasian face attached to it.

So, um, why is it exactly that I should be afraid of black people?

I look around at the world I live in - and, I hate to tell tales out
of school, but it's not the African-Americans who have made this
planet such a pitiful, scary place. Recently, a headline on the front of the Science section of the New York Times asked Who Built The H-Bomb? The article went on to discuss a dispute between the men who claim credit for making the first bomb. Frankly, I could have cared less - because I already know the only pertinent answer: "It was a white guy!" No black guy ever built or used a bomb designed to wipe out hordes of innocent people, whether in Oklahoma City, Columbine or Hiroshima. No, friends, it's always the white guy. Let's go to the tote board:

* Who gave us the black plague? A white guy.

* Who invented PBC, PVC, PBB, and a host of chemicals that are
killing us? White guys.

* Who has started every war America has been in? White men.

* Who invented the punchcard ballot? A white man.

* Whose idea was it to pollute the world with the internal combustion engine? Whitey, that's who.

* The Holocaust? That guy really gave white people a bad name.

* The genocide of Native Americans? White man.

* Slavery? Whitey!

* US companies laid off more than 700,000 people in 2001. Who ordered the lay-offs? White CEOs.

You name the problem, the disease, the human suffering, or the abject misery visited upon millions, and I'll bet you 10 bucks I can put a white face on it faster than you can name the members of 'NSync.

And yet, when I turn on the news each night, what do I see again and again? Black men alleged to be killing, raping, mugging, stabbing, gangbanging, looting, rioting, selling drugs, pimping, ho-ing, having too many babies, fatherless, motherless, Godless, penniless. "The suspect is described as a black male... the suspect is described as a black male... THE SUSPECT IS DESCRIBED AS A BLACK MALE..." No matter what city I'm in, the news is always the same, the suspect always the same unidentified black male. I'm in Atlanta tonight, and I swear the
police sketch of the black male suspect on TV looks just like the
black male suspect I saw on the news last night in Denver and the night before in LA. In every sketch he's frowning, he's menacing - and he's wearing the same knit cap! Is it possible that it's the same black guy committing every crime in America?

I believe we've become so used to this image of the black man as
predator that we are forever ruined by this brainwashing. In my first film, Roger & Me, a white woman on social security clubs a rabbit to death so that she can sell him as "meat" instead of as a pet. I wish I had a nickel for every time in the past 10 years that someone has come up to me and told me how "horrified" they were when they saw that "poor little cute bunny" bonked on the head. The scene, they say, made them physically sick. The Motion Picture Association of America gave Roger & Me an R [18] rating in response to that rabbit killing. Teachers write to me and say they have to edit that part out of the film, if they want to show it to their students.

But less than two minutes after the bunny lady does her deed, I
included footage of a scene in which police in Flint, Michigan, shot
a black man who was wearing a Superman cape and holding a plastic toy gun. Not once - not ever - has anyone said to me, "I can't believe you showed a black man being shot in your movie! How horrible! How disgusting! I couldn't sleep for weeks." After all, he was just a black man, not a cute, cuddly bunny. The ratings board saw absolutely nothing wrong with that scene. Why? Because it's normal, natural. We've become so accustomed to seeing black men killed - in the movies and on the evening news - that we now accept it as standard operating procedure. No big deal! That's what blacks do - kill and die. Ho-hum. Pass the butter.

It's odd that, despite the fact that most crimes are committed by
whites, black faces are usually attached to what we think of
as "crime". Ask any white person who they fear might break into their home or harm them on the street and, if they're honest, they'll admit that the person they have in mind doesn't look much like them. The imaginary criminal in their heads looks like Mookie or Hakim or Kareem, not little freckle-faced Jimmy.

No matter how many times their fellow whites make it clear that the white man is the one to fear, it simply fails to register. Every time you turn on the TV to news of another school shooting, it's always a white kid who's conducting the massacre. Every time they catch a serial killer, it's a crazy white guy. Every time a terrorist blows up a federal building, or a madman gets 400 people to drink Kool-Aid, or a Beach Boys songwriter casts a spell causing half a dozen nymphets to murder "all the piggies" in the Hollywood Hills, you know it's a member of the white race up to his old tricks.

So why don't we run like hell when we see whitey coming toward us? Why don't we ever greet the Caucasian job applicant with, "Gee, uh, I'm sorry, there aren't any positions available right now"? Why aren't we worried sick about our daughters marrying white guys? And why isn't Congress trying to ban the scary and offensive lyrics of Johnny Cash ("I shot a man in Reno/just to watch him die"), the Dixie Chicks ("Earl had to die"), or Bruce Springsteen ("I killed everything in my path/I can't say that I'm sorry for the things that we done").

Why the focus on rap lyrics? Why doesn't the media print lyrics such as the following, and tell the truth? "I sold bottles of sorrow, then chose poems and novels" (Wu-Tang Clan); "People use yo' brain to gain" (Ice Cube); "A poor single mother on welfare... tell me how ya did it" (Tupac Shakur); "I'm trying to change my life, see I don't wanna die a sinner" (Master P).

African-Americans have been on the lowest rung of the economic ladder since the day they were dragged here in chains. Every other immigrant group has been able to advance from the bottom to the higher levels of our society. Even Native Americans, who are among the poorest of the poor, have fewer children living in poverty than African-Americans.

You probably thought things had got better for blacks in this
country. After all, considering the advances we've made eliminating racism in our society, one would think our black citizens might have seen their standard of living rise. A survey published in the Washington Post in July 2001 showed that 40%-60% of white people thought the average black person had it as good or better than the average white person.

Think again. According to a study conducted by the economists Richard Vedder, Lowell Gallaway and David C Clingaman, the average income for a black American is 61% less per year than the average white income. That is the same percentage difference as it was in 1880. Not a damned thing has changed in more than 120 years.

Want more proof? Consider the following:

* Black heart attack patients are far less likely than whites to
undergo cardiac catheterisation, regardless of the race of their
doctors.

* Whites are five times more likely than blacks to receive emergency clot-busting treatment after suffering a stroke.

* Black women are four times more likely than white women to die while giving birth.

* Black levels of unemployment have been roughly twice those of
whites since 1954.

So how have we white people been able to get away with this?
Caucasian ingenuity! You see, we used to be real dumb. Like idiots, we wore our racism on our sleeve. We did really obvious things, like putting up signs on rest-room doors that said WHITES ONLY. We made black people sit at the back of the bus. We prevented them from attending our schools or living in our neighbourhoods. They got the crappiest jobs those advertised for NEGROES ONLY), and we made it clear that, if you weren't white, you were going to be paid a lower wage.

Well, this overt, over-the-top segregation got us into a heap of
trouble. A bunch of uppity lawyers went to court. They pointed out that the 14th Amendment doesn't allow for anyone to be treated differently because of their race. Eventually, after a long
procession of court losses, demonstrations and riots, we got the
message: if you're going to be a successful racist, better find a way to do it with a smile on your face.

We even got magnanimous enough to say, "Sure, you can live here in our neighbourhood; your kids can go to our kids' school. Why the hell not? We were just leaving, anyway." We smiled, gave black America a pat on the back - and then ran like the devil to the suburbs.

At work, we whites still get the plum jobs, double the pay, and a
seat in the front of the bus to happiness and success. We've rigged the system from birth, guaranteeing that black people will go to the worst schools, thus preventing them from admission to the best colleges, and paving their way to a fulfilling life making our caffe lattes, servicing our BMWs, and picking up our trash. Oh, sure, a few slip by - but they pay an extra tariff for the privilege: the black doctor driving his BMW gets pulled over continually by the cops; the black Broadway actress can't get a cab after the standing ovation; the black broker is the first to be laid off because of "seniority".

We whites really deserve some kind of genius award for this. We talk the talk of inclusion, we celebrate the birthday of Dr King, we frown upon racist jokes. We never fail to drop a mention of "my friend - he's black..." We make sure we put our lone black employee up at the front reception desk so we can say, "See - we don't discriminate. We hire black people."

Yes, we are a very crafty, cagey race - and damn if we haven't got away with it!

I wonder how long we will have to live with the legacy of slavery.
That's right. I brought it up. SLAVERY. You can almost hear the
groans of white America whenever you bring up the fact that we still suffer from the impact of the slave system. Well, I'm sorry, but the roots of most of our social ills can be traced straight back to this sick chapter of our history. African-Americans never got a chance to have the same fair start that the rest of us got. Their families were wilfully destroyed, their language and culture and religion stripped from them. Their poverty was institutionalised so that our cotton could get picked, our wars could be fought, our convenience stores could remain open all night. The America we've come to know would never have come to pass if not for the millions of slaves who built it and created its booming economy - and for the millions of their descendants who do the same dirty work for whites today.

It's not as if we're talking ancient Rome here. My grandfather was
born just three years after the Civil War. That's right, my grandfather. My great-uncle was born before the Civil War. And I'm only in my 40s. Sure, people in my family seem to marry late, but the truth remains: I'm just two generations from slave times. That, my friends, is not a "long time ago". In the vast breadth of human history, it was only yesterday. Until we realise that, and accept that we do have a responsibility to correct an immoral act that still has repercussions today, we will never remove the single greatest stain on the soul of our country.

(c) Michael Moore, 2002.


These are edited extracts from "Stupid White Men," by Michael Moore, published by HarperCollins World