Being Gay and Greek

[Kapsig1]

Wow! This is a hot one. I'm going to take the unpopular stance of praising UNFSigmaChi here. I find it incredibly intellectually inane for someone to criticize UNFSigChi for his lack of sensitivity to diversity...hello pot, this is kettle! It drives me CRAZY when those who (with the best of intentions) beat the Diversity Drum, but they are completely unwilling to tolerate diversity of thought, belief and conviction that is different from theirs, or "ugly" by comparison. They want diversity without division, and that is just not real.

At the end of the day, UNF has apologized for "getting off on a religious tangent." I think his expressed opinions in this thread have done anything BUT apologize for his beliefs. I don't (sorry DeltAlum) see a young man "hiding behind his religion," instead I see a young man who is stepping up, unashamed of his convicted faith. His faith, based on a book he believes to be the inspired word of his Creator and God, Who "abhors" sex between men. UNF didn't write it....he believes in it! Further, he EXPECTS to be ostracized for his beliefs in a world where right and wrong balances on the knife edge definition of what "is" is.

I suggest that the Christian standard on how we are to interact with homosexuals is beyond most of our capabilities: "Neither condemn not condone." Now that is WELL beyond the reasoning of what most of our undergraduates are being taught in their so called "liberal education" institutions. There is indeed an alternative to condemning OR condoneing; and that very alternative is indeed what is taught in the book of Romans. (UNF - you might want to give it another read).

God loves all people, but doesn't love everything we do...don't confuse the distinction.

Whether a chapter is willing to accept a gay member as a candidate for membership is ultimately the chapter's choice. Whether it's right or wrong will not be defined in these pages.

At least UNF SigmaChi is THINKING about the principles taught in his ritual! I applaud him for that.

Brad

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi
Oh ya i know there are some who don't believe in playing cards...go to any southern baptist church in alabama! :-)
No i don't believe they are pre-destined to eternal damnation, sorry if thats the way you read it. Its hard to explain stuff on a message board, but I feel its something self-taught, and I have known one person in high school who was gay and went straight, but it was something he struggled with for a long time before he decided to change his ways. I just think its extremley hard to change cause you've indoctrinated yourself with this idea.
And a lot of people dont think its wrong, and times are changing in society where people feel its fine to be gay. I don't oppress my beliefs on people cause its not me and you can do whatever you want with your life as long as it doesn't affect me or others in a negative way. Sorry we got off on a religious tangent here.

[33girl]

Brad,
I personally wasn't questioning his sensitivity to diversity or his right to his own beliefs...just his thought process.

[DeltAlum]

Yup.

[KSigkid]

I'm going to echo what a few others on this board have said. I don't have a problem with whether someone is gay or straight, and I don't think that it should matter whether a rushee/pledge/brother is gay or straight. People are the way they are, and sexual orientation isn't a hinderance or a benefit - it just is what it is.

However...that is my personal opinion. Stereotypes abound, and there are many members of fraternities who believe in the stereotype and who are rather vocal about it. Do whatever you want, but be prepared that in some places, they brotherhood will not, as a whole, be accepting.

Collin

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Kapsig1
I don't (sorry DeltAlum) see a young man "hiding behind his religion," instead I see a young man who is stepping up, unashamed of his convicted faith. His faith, based on a book he believes to be the inspired word of his Creator and God, Who "abhors" sex between men.

Who's talking about sex between men? We're talking about homosexuality - being attracted to men. If we're using your definition, then UNFSigmaChi is not, strictly speaking, heterosexual, b/c he's waiting for marriage, and of course if homosexuality is sex between men, then heterosexuality is sex between a man and a woman.

Also - be careful with usage. We share a common (root) religion, and I seriously doubt that any in my church hierarchy would make any comments similar to 'our God abhors homosexuality.' That seems a bit . . . strong.

Originally posted by Kapsig1
I suggest that the Christian standard on how we are to interact with homosexuals is beyond most of our capabilities: "Neither condemn not condone." Now that is WELL beyond the reasoning of what most of our undergraduates are being taught in their so called "liberal education" institutions.

How is not passing judgement on someone (ie "condemn or condone") outside of the reasoning powers of a common person? Honestly, this is the stance that is supposed to be taken on most, if not all, people - judgement is reserved for your Supreme Being of Choice. And . . . isn't denying a bid the same thing as condemning? Food for thought, if your stated standard is indeed what we should be using.

Originally posted by Kapsig1
Whether a chapter is willing to accept a gay member as a candidate for membership is ultimately the chapter's choice. Whether it's right or wrong will not be defined in these pages.

True - if only for the subjective nature of "right" and "wrong" with application to this topic. However - everyone's views on the topic are germane for this very reason. Including UNFSigmaChi's.

Originally posted by Kapsig1
At least UNF SigmaChi is THINKING about the principles taught in his ritual! I applaud him for that.

You and I have knowledge only of our own ritual, but I think the points people are raising in this realm are more likely that a basis in Christian ideals does not necessarily result in an exclusion of gays. Kudos for finding the meaning in this ceremony, and personalizing it - people are merely questioning him as to how he came to this conclusion, all the while attempting to keep from asking questions about esoteric information (which really keeps the discussion from going anywhere, but that's OK).

I don't think the white cross of Constantine implicitly requires this hard-line reading of the Bible; it's up to you to decide how you run your chapter, and interpret your ritual. No one can do these things for you - good points, Brad, and really from everybody all the way around.

This is one of the better discussions we've had here in a while.

[Jen]

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[Kapsig1]

Sorry if I appeared to be off the handle. It still looks like UNF was getting pretty dogpiled by those nasty PC Police tendancies that we can ALL develop when we type first, think later.

I know that the makeup of GC is pretty much in agreement that if we all revisited our ritual a little more often, we'd all be better off, and I truly was trying to recognize UNF's efforts in that respect.


Now, Brother RC:

Originally posted by KSig RC


Who's talking about sex between men? We're talking about homosexuality - being attracted to men. If we're using your definition, then UNFSigmaChi is not, strictly speaking, heterosexual, b/c he's waiting for marriage, and of course if homosexuality is sex between men, then heterosexuality is sex between a man and a woman.

KSigRC; come on now, at least let's call it like it is. The root word sexuality does indeed infer that sex is involved. This goes back to the whole what "is" is. But for discussion's sake, I will reference it as "same-sex sex" in the future; which IS the root of objection for anyone using biblical standards, including UNFSigmaChi.

Originally posted by KSig RC

Also - be careful with usage. We share a common (root) religion, and I seriously doubt that any in my church hierarchy would make any comments similar to 'our God abhors homosexuality.' That seems a bit . . . strong.

OK, the original translation actually called same-sex sex an "abomination." Somehow, I don't think "abhor" is much of a stretch. People in my church hierachy may very well agree with yours; however, they are not God and they did not inspire the written Word.

Originally posted by KSig RC

How is not passing judgement on someone (ie "condemn or condone") outside of the reasoning powers of a common person? Honestly, this is the stance that is supposed to be taken on most, if not all, people - judgement is reserved for your Supreme Being of Choice. And . . . isn't denying a bid the same thing as condemning? Food for thought, if your stated standard is indeed what we should be using.

I think you misqouted me. I stated that it was "beyond the reasoning being taught......," nevertheless, as humans we have a very strong inclination to either condemn or condone. Have you watched the freak talk shows lately, the common person judges in a heartbeat. You are of course right, the judgement is supposed to be reserved. The question about denying a bid as condemning may hold merit. But it's no more or less judging than when we deny a bid for someone who pisses us off.

Originally posted by KSig RC
[B
You and I have knowledge only of our own ritual, but I think the points people are raising in this realm are more likely that a basis in Christian ideals does not necessarily result in an exclusion of gays. Kudos for finding the meaning in this ceremony, and personalizing it - people are merely questioning him as to how he came to this conclusion, all the while attempting to keep from asking questions about esoteric information (which really keeps the discussion from going anywhere, but that's OK).
[/B]

I applauded UNF for his EVEN THINKING of the ideals held in his initiatory; and was attempting to temper those crying "diversity" without allowing UNF to be diverse in thought.

I NEVER said I agreed with his conclusions. Instead I challenged UNF to read something (book of Romans) that discusses his faith and specifically addresses homosexuality within the context of that faith. I'll allow God to do the work from there. BTW UNF, there are tons of homosexuals who have "changed" as a result of a new found faith in Christ. Impossible? Phil 4:13

[
This is one of the better discussions we've had here in a while.
[/B]

I agree.

[LexiKD]

I think it depends on the campus and what would be accepted.
I'm not sure how I feel about it....I'll have to think some more.

[sailorchicDG]

here at UNF where the greek community represents 1% of the student population

As part of the 1% of the greek population at UNF I have to say that respect what you are saying in your arguments. If I knew a guy who was looking into rushing, I would be the first to push Sigma Chi, because I know what a great group of guys you are However, personally I don't agree.

The fact is that homosexuality has been around forever and is not likely to fade away. Homosexuality is natural (has been documented in other animals besides man) it's just not as socially acceptable as it should be.

In this day and age I tend to have faith in people. I believe that if someone was to go through rush who felt so strongly against gays as to not pledge a fraternity who had a gay man in it, it would be the loss of the rushee.

Maybe my feeling are too different because I am a girl in a sorority and not a guy is a fraternity.

Delta Gamma Fraternity
Eta Delta Chapter

[FuzzieAlum]

I have to say ... I would be very unhappy if my chapter refused a girl a bid solely because she was a lesbian. That said, if a chapter wants to exclude gays, that is its business, whether or not it's in the ritual.

We all know that despite sharing one ritual, not every chapter of a GLO is the same, and they look for different things in members. We turn down people for membership because they (in our estimation) sleep with too many people, drink too much, are sticks-in-the-mud, play too many role-playing games, don't have enough social skills, are too snobby, etc. And not everyone agrees on what it takes to be too slutty or too drunk; the girl we reject your chapter may give a bid to, or vice versa.

So if UNF wants to reject potential brothers based on their orientation, that's his right. It doesn't mean I agree; it just means that if my values don't align with his, I should seek out another house to join.

Now if the majority of his brothers disagree with his stance, that's something the house has to work out for themselves.

[Kevin]

In this day and age I tend to have faith in people. I believe that if someone was to go through rush who felt so strongly against gays as to not pledge a fraternity who had a gay man in it, it would be the loss of the rushee.

Sailorchic, you bring up a very real point here.

Many chapters fear that if they extend a bid to a homosexual gentleman then they will lose a lot of other rushees.

When we do Rush, we are marketing ourselves to guys a year (or less) out of high school. Typically they are not as "enlightened" as we claim to be .

On one level you would say this should not effect the bid extending process in any way (at least for this specific reason).. But it most certainly does in many chapters.

Does this in fact occur? Not in my experience. It has really had little if any effect on one of the houses on my campus that experienced this. They are still #1 for amount of members and have continued to have large pledge classes.

It however is still a huge fear. Think back to high school and you and your peers' views on homosexuality, those are the folks we're trying to recruit -- so you might imagine this is a real fear.

The fraternity is first and foremost a brotherhood based on shared core of beliefs. However, it is also a business and we have to keep our membership at a certain level in order to meet our expenses.

I think that what others have said saying that eventually this will become a more and more accepted part of our culture is true. However, with change there are always growing pains, always people that resist it.

For the prospective rushee, if it is presented in the right light I think it is a huge positive rather than a negative. It shows to them that we consider brothers to be brothers, no matter what. We may have our differences but that does not override the fraternal intent of our fraternity.

Probably 20 years from now this will not be as much of a factor, but right now it is. This is a very interesting discussion.

LHT
Kevin

[Tom Earp]

OKAY, I am a white Male in A White Orgsanization!

I do not want any Blacks, Asians, Gays, Jews, or anyother type of peson I feel offensive by in My Group of people!

That is my choice!!!!!!!!!!

That means I should not be on this site as that is all that there is on this site!

Can You Tell me what color or for that fact anyone else is on this site by reading their posts!

I had a young lady I was talking to on the phone after a breif concersation, ask me if I knew she was Black!
No I did not, she talked as white as I did!
Did I know one was Asian, NO she talked as white as I did!
Did I know one was Gay, NO he talked like I did!

Hell he is a Gay Rodeo Bull Rider! Is that tuff or what?

I talk Bull, I throw Bull, and I even fought Bull in Mexico! ( 4 ) about took my Balls off! All of them, I am not a good Bull Fighter!

I am afraid of Bulls with long horns, but not my freinds on this site!

Well My $2.50 worth, I am a big spender on site!

[LexiKD]

Tom...sorry but that confused me? Can you explain?

[UNFSigmaChi]

I figured this was going to cause a little stir. Some of you guys talk like im a gay hater who's looking for the next matthew shepard to beat up. We have a difference of opinion. Just because I wouldn't want a gay Sigma Chi doesn't mean im a homophob. I may not approve of their lifestyle but its their thing, im not going to hate them because of it. I just don't feel they deserve to be in my fraternity is all. So unless your a sigma chi you can't tell me im wrong. Your not going to change how I feel on this matter either. You say im wrong but what makes you think your not wrong???? And don't say that being diverse in race and sexual orientation is the same thing because its not.

[GammaPhiBabe]

Oh ya i know there are some who don't believe in playing cards...go to any southern baptist church in alabama! :-)

Geez... Generalize much??

My grandfather is a deacon in a southern baptist church in Alabama and he plays cards every weekend. Um, maybe you shouldn't speak so freely about something you know nothing about.
Just like any other denomination, different people interpret things in different ways. Southern Baptists, even in Alabama, are no different.
I'm not offended by what you said, because I think you were a) trying to be funny and b) speaking in ignorance. But I think that it might behoove you to think before you speak...or type, as the case may be.