Will the Greek world ever desegregate?

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by dzrose93


Alias,

The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself, and in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. The truth is, it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive, what part of the city you live in, or what your daddy does when you go through Rush. It's how the girls themselves perceive you and if they feel you would be a good "fit" in their organization.

With all due respect dzrose, did you read the article? I'm not trying to be nasty; I'm really trying to understand how you got such a different perception from the same piece I read. What I got out of it is Melody Twilley was a girl who came from privilege who wanted to join the same organizations as two of her close high school friends. Nowhere in her statements did I get a sense that she had some sort of "agenda". (I got that from the faculty member who adopted Twilley as his personal pet project).

If the people in question had the perception that Twilley was trying to "prove" something, therein lies the real problem - that an African American girl can't pursue membership in an NPC sorority at Alabama without it looking like she has some sort of "agenda". People are already looking at her with suspicion and mistrust without even taking the time to get to know her. She's a threat by virtue of her mere presence -- and that is prejudice in it's purest form.

Can someone from an NPC/NIC organization answer this question? Is determining whether someone has the means to afford the cost of membership part of seeing if someone's a "good fit"? If true, then is Twilley's statement about "having a need" really that much of a gaffe? Isn't financial responsibility to the organization a big part of membership?

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I went to school in New York State. My sorority was quite integrated as were many of the sororities. The fraternities unfortunately did not accurately reflect the racial diversity of New York. The sad reality is many of my Haitian and African American sisters were given a difficult time by some of the black students. Interestingly, the sisters of the historically BGLO's were very supportive of the NPC sororities and vice versa. My Latina and Asian sisters did not have the same experience of negative feedback to my knowledge.

I guess I was naive about the issue of racial diversity in sororities. I just thought that as a nation we were past this. I gained a lot from my sorority experience and my involvement with the greek system in general. I built friendships with many different people and peoples in my sorority, other NPC sororities, and NPHC groups. This definitely enhanced my college experience and helped make me a well rounded person.

I can only speak about the NPC's and NIC's on my campus but I think it goes pretty much for the all of them....
Yes, financial responsiblity is a big part in keeping in Good Standing with an org. But I think that would be the case whether your in NPHC, NIC, NPC, Locals or whatever.
There were many ppl at my school who are in Greek orgs and dont have it easy financially.Alot of us were on financial aid and some worked 2-3 jobs just to stay in school. But the orgs so everything in their power to help you out, whether its setting up a financial plan or giving you a chapter or org. scholarship to help out. So no, speaking for the NPC's and NIC's and even NPHC's on my campus....we dont eliminate you if we dont think you can afford it. I'd take a hard working struggling sister any day over one that flaunts mommy and daddy's cash all the time.
At UM you could tell who was rich or poor anyways unless they did flaunt it. There were kids there who's parents (keyword is parents) were worth billions and they walked around wearing thrift store clothes and driving old beat up cars.

[Alias23]

"The New Republic article about Miss Twilley's experience was very similar to the other ones I read. All of the authors gave a cursory mention to her impressive intelligence (a sentence or two about her graduating from the Alabama School of Math and Science) but chose to concentrate on things like her desire for her nail polish to match her dress, her affluence and her political affiliation. If they were trying to convince people how well she would have fit into an NPC organization, they should have interviewed her teachers, friends and minister. They should have concentrated more on her grades and extracurricular activities or any volunteer work she may do. THAT is what sorority sisters talk to rushees about, not how much their parents make or what car they drive." -- KillarneyRose

I agree that putting additional emphasis on grades, extracurricular activities or volunteer work would have helped the article's purpose tremendously, and I too wish they would have mentioned more about those things. However, I still believe that the references to Twilley's appearance and social status are being taken out of context. What the writer was trying to do was show that Twilley didn't fit any of the racial stereotypes attributed to Blacks, because those stereotypes are the rationale racists use when committing discriminatory acts. The statements about how Twilley carried herself and her social/financial status were there to disprove those stereotypes and show that she was not "beneath" the sorority sisters who met with her, as people who commit racist behavior often tend to believe about Blacks. Where the writer went wrong was when there wasn't additional emphasis on the things you mentioned earlier, because those things are more important in general. Just try and understand that when dealing with potential racism, particularly in a social institution, those things have to be addressed because Blacks are subject to such stereotypes, superficial as they may be.

The Greek world as a whole receives a bum rap with people perceiving it as superficial, and I think that's why some people get upset when "cars" and "nail polish" are mentioned. Some people think those things are being emphasized in the article because to them they stand out, but in reality Twilley's Cherokee and nail polish were a very small part of the article (mentioned only once I think). Please don't let it destract you from the point of the article.

Thanks for your comments KillarneyRose! You really helped me understand your perspective and brought up some good points!

[FuzzieAlum]

Can someone from an NPC/NIC organization answer this question? Is determining whether someone has the means to afford the cost of membership part of seeing if someone's a "good fit"? If true, then is Twilley's statement about "having a need" really that much of a gaffe? Isn't financial responsibility to the organization a big part of membership?

Of course, I can only speak from my experience on my campus, but we did not determine whether someone had the means to afford membership. We made sure to give out financial information (during third party at formal rush; posted on the chapter website) and answered any questions girls had. We talked up payment plans, etc. We figured it was then the PNM's responsibility to decide if she could afford it or not, not ours. Even if their parents were fabu rich, after all, they might just refuse to pay for membership in a GLO.

On the other hand, dues were relatively inexpensive on my campus. Most students could come up with the necessary $200. Maybe if dues are higher it's more of a concern. But I suspect that in most cases, sororities and fraternities figure the PNM is smart enough to make a budget, talk to her parents, consider getting a job, etc.

[SoTrue1920]

Thanks for your responses, FuzzieAlum and UMGirl

[dzrose93]

There have a been a few GCErs who questioned my original response to Alias, so I'll try to explain myself here:

Yes, I read the article about Twilley. Yes, I've read several articles about Twilley. And, yes, I know people who have actually spoken to Twilley herself - and I was referring to those peoples' impressions of her, not anything in the articles, when I said that it appeared that Twilley may have had an "agenda" when she went through rush the second time. If you read the articles, you would get nothing more than the picture of a privileged girl who went through Rush and got cut for apparently no reason other than the color of her skin. But you can't always take articles at face value, and a lot of people unfortunately do.

The main point that I was trying to make when responding to Alias is that there are MANY, MANY girls who get cut from formal rush once -- and often more than once -- who appear on the outside to be qualified because of their financial status and/or high school GPA. However, it is only an African-American girl who gets the headlines when she doesn't get a bid at a Southern school. The Caucasian girls who are cut don't even merit a blurb in a college paper, much less a spot on the front page of a national. There is definitely something to be said about that, and I don't feel like I'm being a racist for pointing it out.

SoTrue1920 said it perfectly: Melody Twilley is a symbol. She's probably a very nice person, but she's a symbol of something greater, and I think we should try to remember that.

My question is: WHY is Twilley a symbol? Because she was cut from Rush? No, that can't be it - because 1,000's of girls are cut from Rush every year. Twilley claims that it must be because she's black. And the media subtly alleges that the NPC sororities in the South must all be filled with racists because they didn't give a bid to a black girl whose family is a member of the upper class financial bracket.

I'm sorry, but it's just not that cut and dried, and I don't think the media should try to make it appear that way -- and I don't think Twilley should have raised such a ruckus about it. If a white girl had made such a stink on campus about not getting a bid, most people would have looked at her in wide-eyed bemusement, shaking their heads and thinking to themselves, "um, so you didn't get a bid... time to move on with life..."

Because Twilley is black, this turned into a huge racial debate, and I just don't see why. It would be different if the girls in the houses had treated her terribly during Rush or showed any sign that they disliked Twilley because of her race. But, even in the article, Twilley comments on how sweet the girls were and how upbeat they were during the parties. I suppose (to answer another of your questions, Alias) if there was any evidence to prove that Twilley was discriminated against because of her race, I would feel differently. However, not receiving a bid doesn't strike me as a racist move. Like I've stated repeatedly, lots of girls don't get bids and the fact that Twilley is among the list doesn't prove a thing.

Alias states that: "Besides, if she WAS trying to prove a point, instead of rejecting her because of it, wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to judge her solely on her qualities to see if she was the right material and prove everybody wrong if she was? Why would you teach her a lesson by helping her prove her point?"

My rebuttal to that is: How do you know that the sororities DIDN'T judge Twilley solely on her qualities? Normally, when a person goes through Rush 2 times and gets cut by every sorority on campus, there is usually a pretty good reason for it. It could be something as simple as she didn't seem interested in the sorority and the girls didn't want to waste a bid on someone who wasn't interested. There are a million "maybes", but race is the only reason that anyone in the media has ever offered as a cause for the cut. The fact is, we just don't know. We weren't in the houses, and we don't know how Twilley and the sisters interacted. So, why should we jump to the conclusion that it was a racist move on the sororities' part?

Also, sororities don't exist to teach people lessons. During Rush, the groups are interested in one thing: finding girls who meet the standards that their organization was founded upon, who get along with the other sisters, and who seem to show an interest in their particular sorority.

Now, back to my original comment about what kind of car I drove when I went through Rush... I just find it extremely funny and absurd that so much emphasis has been placed on what kind of car a person who was cut from Rush drives, when cars don't even matter. Nowhere on any NPC rush application is there a spot for rushees to list the make/model of their car, and "What kind of car do you drive?", regardless of what some people might think, is NOT an age-old question asked by sorority girls at an NPC rush party.

Yes, we want to make sure that the girls we pick up are going to be able to handle their financial obligations to the sorority. But, no, we're not snobs for feeling that way. Would a department store give you a credit card without asking first if you can afford the payments? Would a gym give you a 1-year membership without checking to see if you can pay the dues?

A sorority is a business much like any other, and we should not have to apologize for "watching our backs" and making sure that the girls to whom we offer bids can actually afford the cost of socials, formals, house upkeep, etc. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean that we only offer bids to girls who drive top of the line vehicles and have a trust fund set up by daddy. We also take girls who hold down jobs in order to pay their sorority dues, and, in my case, girls who drive older model, less attractive cars. So, my point about the car is that it seems like people OUTSIDE of the sororities are making a bigger deal about a rushee's material assets than the sororities themselves.

That's really the only point I was trying to make. I apologize if I've offended anyone with these or past comments in this thread.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


If the people in question had the perception that Twilley was trying to "prove" something, therein lies the real problem - that an African American girl can't pursue membership in an NPC sorority at Alabama without it looking like she has some sort of "agenda". People are already looking at her with suspicion and mistrust without even taking the time to get to know her. She's a threat by virtue of her mere presence -- and that is prejudice in it's purest form.

SoTrue, I wasn't trying to infer that Twilley had an agenda by going through Rush the first time and I do apologize. Re-reading my original statement, I can see how my words could be a little confusing. Let me clarify a little.

I'm sure that, originally, she probably WAS trying to get into an organization with her two high school friends, and was upset when she didn't receive a bid (for whatever reasons). However, she turned it into an issue by going through Rush a second time AFTER publicly stating that she felt racial reasons were the cause of her cut the first time.

If someone had attempted to gain membership into a BGLO and failed (for whatever reasons), publicly proclaimed that they feel they were excluded from joining an NPHC sorority because they were white, and then attempted to go through your intake process again -- wouldn't you be a little skeptical as to their reasons for doing so? You already know what is foremost in that person's mind because they've stated it for everyone to hear, and you're naturally going to question the person's motives a little. Does that make you prejudiced? I don't think it does. I think it makes you a realist.

I hope this helps you understand my view a little better, and, again, I apologize for my unclear words earlier. No offense intended.

[Honeykiss1974]

When I originally read the article (thanks Rudey for posting the link) my first reaction was : who is Twilia? I've never heardor read about this?
Now,after reading all the post, I feel like I have to add my $1.00 to this conversation.

Maybe Twilia did not receive a bid because(your guess is as good as mine!!!):
1. her race
2. her qualifications
3. bid quota
4. not a good fit with her chosen sorority
5. because __________(fill in the blank)


1.) Now correct me if I am wrong, but are NPC/NIC orgs required to let rejected PNM know WHY they did not receive a bid? It seems to me that by simply saying WHY she was not accepted (whether before or after she went "public")would have cleared everything up right then and there.

2.) Why is it SO HARD for some of you to believe that Twilia was not picked up because she was black? I am not saying that this is the reason why because like most of you, I DO NOT KNOW!!! Some of you made the point that we must be careful when reading articles from the outside media, because they usually will present the negative or bad aspects of GLO's, but yet you then try and use these same "biased"article to back up your points.

3.) Racism still exist in today's society. If you don't believe me please go and check out http://www.tolerance.org. Or how about the Auburn Univ. incident? Let's get real people. As long as you try to just sweep these types of issues under a rug, they will continue to come back to haunt us.

Like I have stated earlier, none of us knows why Twilia was rejected, except for the sorority members involved.

On my campus, you go to the office to see whether you have a bid card or not. If you didnt get one then there is no explanation, but they tell you not to let it deter you and that there is always winter rush which is more comfortable and less competitive.
There are tooo many reason for why a girl may not get asked back, and if your campus has the computerized system, its even more difficult to explain, because even though a sorority may have loved you. The computer will match the first 42 girls who wanted that sorority (and 42 is the quota for XYZ), if you're 43 you're kinda SOL. Truthfully youd probably have to give a reason to over 400 girls depending on the school as to why the didnt get a bid.

[Alias23]

Good post Honeykiss!

"Yes, I read the article about Twilley. Yes, I've read several articles about Twilley. And, yes, I know people who have actually spoken to Twilley herself - and I was referring to those peoples' impressions of her, not anything in the articles, when I said that it appeared that Twilley may have had an "agenda" when she went through rush the second time." -- dzrose

Those people's impressions don't mean she had an agenda. People's impressions can often be colored by thier own biases and expectations. You used this as the basis for saying it was "apparant" that Twilley had an agenda, and those are only opinions. It's funny how little proof you required to conclude that she had an "agenda," but at the same time you require blatant proof to believe that she was turned away because of her race.

You seem to be saying "prove Twilley was rejected because of her race," and my reply is simply "prove that she wasn't." Like Honeykiss, and a couple of other people have said, there's no ABSOLUTE way to know unless you were there or someone admitted to it. What you have to understand is that in cases of racism you rarely have someone come out and say "I denied so and so a membership/job/etc. because he/she is Black." If we waited on something that blatant the African-American community, or any other minorities, would never make any progress. Racism today is much more subtle and concealed than in the past. It's less often what you see on TV with police spraying Black folks with hoses and business owners blocking the entrance saying "no darkies allowed." That's why when we see situations like Twilley's that give the Black community pause, we have to take action and at least look into it. I haven't reached a conclusion one way or the other about what happened to Twilley because I don't have enough information, but articles like this one draw attention to the issue which increases the chances that the matter will be investigated or that change will occur. African-Americans, or whoever the offended minority is, have to be the judges of what could and could not be potential acts of racism. If we relied on the White community to decide what are and are not acts of racism, the Black community would never have made any progress.

Also, you must understand that the measuring stick for what is and is not discriminatory is not intent, but the end result. If the end result of an action/policy/procedure is discriminatory, then CHANGES MUST BE MADE. This has to be the rule, or else businesses across the country, for example, could decide that they weren't going to hire any Blacks (or other minority), and unless we could come up with proof that someone said "we're not hiring any Blacks" we would just be out of jobs. That's why we have to look at the end result and not the intent. The standard is the same for investigating discrimination against women. Believe it or not, some people aren't even aware that their views/actions are racist or discriminatory.

"Because Twilley is black, this turned into a huge racial debate, and I just don't see why. It would be different if the girls in the houses had treated her terribly during Rush or showed any sign that they disliked Twilley because of her race. But, even in the article, Twilley comments on how sweet the girls were and how upbeat they were during the parties. I suppose (to answer another of your questions, Alias) if there was any evidence to prove that Twilley was discriminated against because of her race, I would feel differently. However, not receiving a bid doesn't strike me as a racist move. Like I've stated repeatedly, lots of girls don't get bids and the fact that Twilley is among the list doesn't prove a thing." -- dzrose

You never answered this question, so again I ask you: Short of evidence that someone directly said they weren't letting her in because she was Black (which rarely happens in cases of discrimination), what specifically would it take to prove to you that she was turned away because of her race? You said that someone not receiving a bid doesn't seem like a racist move to you, which as an isolated event is true. A Black person not getting hired for a job isn't a racist move in isolation either, but you have to look at THE WHOLE PICTURE, and African-Americans have to be the judge of whether or not they should pursue the matter further. Using the media is a way of drawing attention to increase the chances that the matter will be investigated, so why shouldn't Twilley agree to be interviewed? If she feels race may have played a factor, she has a responsibility to herself and the Black community to speak up.

"The main point that I was trying to make when responding to Alias is that there are MANY, MANY girls who get cut from formal rush once -- and often more than once -- who appear on the outside to be qualified because of their financial status and/or high school GPA. However, it is only an African-American girl who gets the headlines when she doesn't get a bid at a Southern school. The Caucasian girls who are cut don't even merit a blurb in a college paper, much less a spot on the front page of a national. There is definitely something to be said about that, and I don't feel like I'm being a racist for pointing it out." -- dzrose

No, you're not a racist, but you definitely seem to be out of touch. Why would someone put a blurb in the paper about it being racist for a White girl not to get a bid to an all White/historically White sorority? Cases of racism usually involve victims of a different race than the people accused of being racist. Let's keep it real here. And it's not like African-Americans don't have a reason for watching out for situations like this and investigating them.

You seem to be in a certain amount of denial about the existence of racism in institutions and other forms that aren't blatantly obvious. I, personally, haven't reached any conclusion about Twilley's situation, but I do think it warrants looking into potentially discriminatory practices in the Greek system at Alabama as a whole. You, however, seem to have already reached the conclusion, based on the article and some hearsay, that Twilley's denial of a bid had nothing to do with race. You're saying people shouldn't jump to conclusions, when that's exactly what you're doing. The issue should be examined further to see if there's a pattern and other evidence of discrimination in Alabama's Greek system, which it appears there might be. Then people can reach conclusions and act accordingly.

[dzrose93]

Apparently, Alias, we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this issue. I think that I made my points quite succinctly, and I did answer your questions to the best of my ability.

I'm sorry if you feel that I am "out of touch." As a person who has lived in the South nearly all of her life, I am quite familar with cases of racism. Some are totally valid and some aren't. I wholly support racial equality and I am very aware that racism still exists - in all parts of the country, not just the South. However, quite frankly, I feel that some people are entirely too eager to cry "discrimination" when they don't get their way about something. And the public, at times, jumps on the bandwaqon without even waiting to see the other side of the issue. I feel that this quite possibly was the case at Alabama. NPC sororities were put in a negative spotlight for not giving a bid to someone -- an act that happens every year. The only reason for that spotlight was because the person in question was black.

Have you checked to see what other minorities are members of NPC sororities at Alabama? If you do, you'll find that there are Hispanic, Latina, and Asian members in various sororities. You'll also find that some minority girls, aside from Twilley, were not offered bids during Rush. Should they be crying racism also?

It appears that we have differing opinions, Alias. But I would appreciate it if you would not assume that I am "out of touch" just because my viewpoint is different. I assure you that I am an intelligent woman who has a very firm grasp on the real world.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
When I originally read the article (thanks Rudey for posting the link) my first reaction was : who is Twilia? I've never heardor read about this?
Now,after reading all the post, I feel like I have to add my $1.00 to this conversation.

Maybe Twilia did not receive a bid because(your guess is as good as mine!!!):
1. her race
2. her qualifications
3. bid quota
4. not a good fit with her chosen sorority
5. because __________(fill in the blank)


1.) Now correct me if I am wrong, but are NPC/NIC orgs required to let rejected PNM know WHY they did not receive a bid? It seems to me that by simply saying WHY she was not accepted (whether before or after she went "public")would have cleared everything up right then and there.

2.) Why is it SO HARD for some of you to believe that Twilia was not picked up because she was black? I am not saying that this is the reason why because like most of you, I DO NOT KNOW!!! Some of you made the point that we must be careful when reading articles from the outside media, because they usually will present the negative or bad aspects of GLO's, but yet you then try and use these same "biased"article to back up your points.

3.) Racism still exist in today's society. If you don't believe me please go and check out http://www.tolerance.org. Or how about the Auburn Univ. incident? Let's get real people. As long as you try to just sweep these types of issues under a rug, they will continue to come back to haunt us.

Like I have stated earlier, none of us knows why Twilia was rejected, except for the sorority members involved.

1) It is not the policy of NPC to tell anyone who is cut from Rush why they were cut. There are so many reasons and so many girls going through that it would take forever. Not to mention the hurt feelings. What if the reason someone was cut is because they have a reputation of being a "ho" on campus? Do you think that knowing that would make the person feel any better? And, in Twilley's case, if NPC had given a reason for her cut, it would set a precedent for anyone else down the road who voices a complaint about the way their Rush turned out.

2) It's not that it's hard to believe that Twilley wasn't picked up because she was black. All I'm saying is that we simply don't know the real reason why, so why should we jump to the most sordid conclusion and drag the reputation of several national Greek organizations through the mud without any proof whatsoever that racism occured? Why does everyone automatically assume that the NPC sororities are to blame? To me, THAT seems a little prejudiced.

3) I'm not trying to sweep ANYTHING under the rug. I have stated, in many threads and in many posts, that I am fully aware that racism exists. So, no, I'm not wearing blinders, stuffing cotton in my ears, and humming Jingle Bells loudly so that I don't have to hear the horrible truth that discrimination is still alive and well.

4) This whole thread got off on a big Alabama/Twilley tangent ever since Killarney and I cracked a couple of jokes about the cars we used to drive. If I could take them back I would, because I never thought things would get taken so far. So, on that note, can we please get back to the original topic now?

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by dzrose93


1) It is not the policy of NPC to tell anyone who is cut from Rush why they were cut. There are so many reasons and so many girls going through that it would take forever. Not to mention the hurt feelings. What if the reason someone was cut is because they have a reputation of being a "ho" on campus? Do you think that knowing that would make the person feel any better? And, in Twilley's case, if NPC had given a reason for her cut, it would set a precedent for anyone else down the road who voices a complaint about the way their Rush turned out.

2) It's not that it's hard to believe that Twilley wasn't picked up because she was black. All I'm saying is that we simply don't know the real reason why, so why should we jump to the most sordid conclusion and drag the reputation of several national Greek organizations through the mud without any proof whatsoever that racism occured? Why does everyone automatically assume that the NPC sororities are to blame? To me, THAT seems a little prejudiced.

Dzroses - I don't recall anyone saying that NPC sororities were to blame nor drag the reputation of several national greek orgs through the mud. However if the shoe fits........


Now back to the topic at hand......
The discussion that has taken place here proves to me that right now a lot of members of various greek orgs ARE NOT ready to be truly 50/50 or diverse. (And for the record, one person of a different racial group DOES NOT make your org diverse!)
In order for an org to be a family (like your real family) one has to be able to talk and have frank conversations, and not pussy-foot or skate around certain issues. I believe that just like your real family, you must share common goals, backgrounds, beliefs, and most importantly love for that other person. If Twilia was my real sister, I would support her, even though I might not agree with her. You have to ask yourself if you could do the same for sprprity sister as well.

[SoTrue1920]

Here's an interesting article from a different perspective. From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, it deals with a (former ?) member of UGA's Alpha Gamma Delta chapter who quit because of what she percieved as discriminatory actions:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/met...0sorority.html

This is the first time since the incident that Allison Davis (the woman who reported the incident) has spoken at length about what happened.