Overheard at Starbucks today....

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Why do businesses require references for prospective employees?

We no longer do. Nobody will submit a name of a person who will give them a bad job reference. I regularly call "off the record" contacts who might know the applicant to get a true reference.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Why do businesses require references for prospective employees?

Exactly.

Business references can make sense. Written recommendations can make sense. But those come from previous employers, teachers, coaches, pastors, etc. When applying to schools or applying for jobs, the references/recommendations don't have to come from a person from the particular school or company to which the applicant is applying. They come from people who actually KNOW the applicant.

I can understand having recs, but why have a sorority alumna who met the PNM for 30 minutes, or who has never met the PNM at all, write a rec? Why not have it be someone who has spent countless hours with the PNM and can actually vouch for them?

ETA: I would LOVE for someone to do a long-term, extensive study about the correlation between PNMs who receive recs, and the extent to which they contribute to the sorority (do they stay or drop, do they run for or hold positions, GPA, risk management issues, involvement as an alumna, etc.) vs. those PNMs who don't receive recs.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Why do businesses require references for prospective employees?

Well, those are kind of nonsensical too.

[Sciencewoman]

Originally Posted by iamamom

If anyone heard her story they'd assume it would have made no difference whether she had recs or not. I'm certainly of that opinion now.

Having a rec =/= any guarantee of an invitation to any successive rounds for NPC group, as far as I'm aware (assuming non-legacy), but it can't hurt, either.

My daughter did have a personal rec to the group she joined, at a school that's on the "up for debate" list in the "where you absolutely need recs" thread. She also had recs to 3 groups who cut her after the first round. In fact, two of the groups cut everyone on her hall, and the third invited 2 hallmates to second round, then cut them, too. So, I'd agree there's no guarantee, but I think they did help her get invited back to some of the other groups (one of which is a group that I think requires recs at the national level).

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, those are kind of nonsensical too.

Not really. The list can be informational by its omissions.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Not really. The list can be informational by its omissions.

But unless you know the business owner/manager personally, you need a reference for the person giving the reference. One of my friends recntly had her job put into jeopardy because her supervisor wanted her to do some shady things and she refused. I'm sure he wouldn't give her a good reference, but this is the definition of "consider the source."

And you know what? That applies to sorority recs too. I'm sure a rec from ABC at Teeny Northern U doesn't impress ABC at SEC U. And honestly, why should it?

As I said, somewhere along the way this system got corrupted from "here's a letter of introduction" to " this form is supposed to be a golden ticket and if it's not, I'll shout far and wide how awful this chapter/group is."

[pinksequins]

Drawing on the parallel to job references, a job reference often cannot tell whether a job applicant is the right fit for the job. Mary may have been well-liked and capable at her prior job, but she might not fit well with the dynamic and needs of the new employer (despite a good reference). The new employer might be overly staffed with feel good, busy doers (rather than strategic thinkers or leaders). Similarly, many recs can only go so far, which is where chapters meeting the PNMs and ascertaining fit comes in. A rec from Nancy Northeast who graduated in the 80s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit in a Texas university in 2015 any more than a reference will know if Mary belongs at the new company.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by pinksequins

Drawing on the parallel to job references, a job reference often cannot tell whether a job applicant is the right fit for the job. Mary may have been well-liked and capable at her prior job, but she might not fit well with the dynamic and needs of the new employer (despite a good reference). The new employer might be overly staffed with feel good, busy doers (rather than strategic thinkers or leaders). Similarly, many recs can only go so far, which is where chapters meeting the PNMs and ascertaining fit comes in. A rec from Nancy Northeast who graduated in the 80s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit in a Texas university in 2015 any more than a reference will know if Mary belongs at the new company.

THIS EXACTLY TIMES ELEVENTY TWELVE.

[pinksequins]

You're hired!

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by pinksequins

Drawing on the parallel to job references, a job reference often cannot tell whether a job applicant is the right fit for the job. Mary may have been well-liked and capable at her prior job, but she might not fit well with the dynamic and needs of the new employer (despite a good reference). The new employer might be overly staffed with feel good, busy doers (rather than strategic thinkers or leaders). Similarly, many recs can only go so far, which is where chapters meeting the PNMs and ascertaining fit comes in. A rec from Nancy Northeast who graduated in the 80s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit in a Texas university in 2015 any more than a reference will know if Mary belongs at the new company.

Right. And even a UT alumna who graduated in the 1980s might not have any idea whether the PNM will be a good fit at UT in 2015.

As 33girl said, the meaning and purpose of recs seems to have been lost along the way. For the NPCs that require them, it'd be interesting to know what the reasoning is. Is it really making that much of a difference in their new member classes? Do they have a higher retention rate? Are their chapter members more involved? Is there anything to suggest that requiring them from every PNM at every school is beneficial? Just curious.

[DubaiSis]

I would be much more supportive of recs if they were reserved for solid personal connections. Mom's best friend who has known the girl literally since birth, a teacher who sees the girl every day, etc. As soon as you send out girls to find women to write her recs, or worse send her to an alumnae panhellenic, then the value is completely lost.

[pinksequins]

I can see recs being helpful for those chapters that conduct a lot of advance legwork to understand who of hundreds of PNMs are coming through recruitment. Having them at some schools can help avoid the easy cut. The quality of the rec matters to the former and has little bearing on the latter. The latter is just ticking the box.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And this is a time when people ask, "What's the point of recs?"

To perpetuate classism?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by 33girl

But unless you know the business owner/manager personally, you need a reference for the person giving the reference. One of my friends recntly had her job put into jeopardy because her supervisor wanted her to do some shady things and she refused. I'm sure he wouldn't give her a good reference, but this is the definition of "consider the source."

And you know what? That applies to sorority recs too. I'm sure a rec from ABC at Teeny Northern U doesn't impress ABC at SEC U. And honestly, why should it?

As I said, somewhere along the way this system got corrupted from "here's a letter of introduction" to " this form is supposed to be a golden ticket and if it's not, I'll shout far and wide how awful this chapter/group is."

You are so jaded....

[OPhiAGinger]

Maybe the real purpose of recs has nothing to do with recruitment at all. It could just be a way to keep alumnae engaged. "Look, Ally Alumna! Your opinion still matters! If you know a great potential member, let us know!" Engaged alumnae = supportive alumnae in many other ways.