The subjectivity of defining "child abuse"

[Alpha O]

I read these editorials last night and found them interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/op...buse.html?_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/op...ild-abuse.html
I found this one particularly interesting, since I didn't know what the context for corporal punishment in the African American community was before reading it. Having looked at the comments, some people are getting the idea that the author thinks this is mainly an African American issue, but I didn't get that idea at all because I know this is widespread among a variety of cultures.


Dr. Phil, this is from the second article you posted:

SIEGEL: You say the majority of parents physically punish their children about once a year. How much does that practice vary by race, region, education level, class - whatever?

GERSHOFF: It varies a fair amount. We know that it varies by race or ethnic group. African-American parents, in particular, spank more often than other groups. Whites and Latinos spank about the same. And Asian-Americans spank the least.

What we do also know is that there are not differences in the effects of spanking on children by race or ethnic group. And so with a large national sample, we found that even though African-American parents do spank more often, it's not more effective at increasing children's positive behavior and in fact has the opposite effect and increases children's aggressive behavior over time.

SIEGEL: There are lots of people today who are parents who were disciplined by their parents by being beaten and consider it normal and therefore beat their children.

GERSHOFF: That's true. We do see that cycle of violence continuing through generations. Our own parents are our best example for how to parent. We live with our parents for many years. And that's the most close-up view of parenting we've ever seen. But there are many parents who are breaking that cycle and realizing that it is possible to raise children without hitting them. And that in fact if you don't hit them, you can raise perfectly good and perhaps even more well-behaved children who don't have the mental-health problems and behavior problems that are often associated with frequent spanking.

I think this is important. Many people use corporal punishment, but increasing its frequency is not effective and can have some very negative consequences on the psychological well-being of children. This is what I would expect. Overall I think that positive reinforcement is a better way to train someone than to punish them. I haven't read up on all the studies, but that's what I've observed in my life.

And if using corporal punishment as frequently as it is used is not effective and can have very negative potential consequences, then I would hope that this situation being brought to light can foster some enlightened conversations and could encourage people to make some changes on a personal and cultural level so that parents are no longer encouraged to punish their children in potentially counterproductive ways. As we become more knowledgeable, we evolve over time and shape our culture. I don't think it's necessary to hold on to things that aren't as effective as they were once thought to be, especially if they have the potential to be pretty harmful.

[DrPhil]

I agree. This is really about cultural variations in parenting, historical and contemporary parenting, and why having children should not be the default. Societies need to stop encouraging people to have children and pretending the majority of people just somehow figure it out or somehow make it work.

[DrPhil]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/...ase/ar-BB8aURn

[AOIILisa]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

There are families (and cultures) where it will always be more than a few times or that few times will be strong enough to leave a mark (at least a whelp).

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think you will be hard pressed to find a majority that agree with spanking to the point of whelps and bruises.

I just have to jump in here - a whelp is a puppy - I think the word you're looking for is "welt" (a raised mark) - sorry to be the word police !

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I agree. This is really about cultural variations in parenting, historical and contemporary parenting, and why having children should not be the default. Societies need to stop encouraging people to have children and pretending the majority of people just somehow figure it out or somehow make it work.

This 1000x!

[Kevin]

It's a real grey area where that line is and community standards can often dictate where that line is and create a problematic blurry line for the parents. Of course the safest thing to do for parents is not to use corporal punishment, but in many states, that is still their right.

For example, in Oklahoma, here is a uniform jury instruction given in all child abuse jury trials:

It is not child abuse for a parent to use ordinary force to discipline a child, including, but not limited to, spanking, switching, or paddling.

So it is a question of fact for the jury as to whether ordinary force was used and you are going to find that jurors come from a wide variety of backgrounds, many of which are not going to think there was more than ordinary force (because they got it worse from their parents).

I am actually surprised this child is not in state custody because we clearly have a case where if criminal child abuse did occur, the mother is probably a mandated reporter and she failed to protect her child on at least one other occasion.

[DrPhil]

That's another cultural difference. Many cultures do not care about respect (in the "we're both humans, let's talk it out and then walk it out" sense of the word) between parent and child. For example, in Black American culture and other African diaspora cultures, the tendency (WARNING: GENERALIZATION THAT DOESN'T APPLY 100%) is to be stern and invoke fear. It doesn't matter that the child is afraid and only behaving for the time being and to avoid further punishment. The phrase "you better/you're going to respect me" is used in the same manner as not looking adults in the eye unless told to do so. It isn't a parent-child-equal-footing-respect to which mainstream cultures tend to adhere.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's another cultural difference. Many cultures do not care about respect (in the "we're both humans, let's talk it out and then walk it out" sense of the word) between parent and child. For example, in Black American culture and other African diaspora cultures, the tendency (WARNING: GENERALIZATION THAT DOESN'T APPLY 100%) is to be stern and invoke fear. It doesn't matter that the child is afraid and only behaving for the time being and to avoid further punishment. The phrase "you better/you're going to respect me" is used in the same manner as not looking adults in the eye unless told to do so. It isn't a parent-child-equal-footing-respect to which mainstream cultures tend to adhere.

How do you think that informs future interactions, when that child is an adult?

Not making a judgement, just thinking out loud. This might be off-topic but a couple of years ago I had a coworker who was upset with me because he felt I didn't "respect [him] enough." It seems that, even though he wasn't of the African diaspora, that he had the same thinking that younger people just automatically have to respect their elders whether or not they actually earned it.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

How do you think that informs future interactions, when that child is an adult?

For me and my sister by blood, we're thankful.

Not just the spankings, but the discipline in general we received growing up.

Growing up the mantra from my parents and grandparents was 'If I don't teach you, the law will.'

And we all know that 'the law' is much more severe with AfAm than whites.

[Low D Flat]

We shouldn't be in the business of punishing parents unless it is readily apparent that the parent's intent in hitting the child was to be cruel, to torture, etc.

So if a parent beats a child hard enough to cause broken bones, concussions, death, etc., there shouldn't be any punishment as long as the intent was good?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

So if a parent beats a child hard enough to cause broken bones, concussions, death, etc., there shouldn't be any punishment as long as the intent was good?

How in the hell did you go there from anything I said above?

Peterson's case involves no broken bones, concussions, death, etc.

[StealthMode]

Originally Posted by Kevin

How in the hell did you go there from anything I said above?

I had the same first thought that Low D Flat did. I know that's not what you meant but that's how your post read.