The Confederate Flag

[DrPhil]

I like good HOAs. I hate bad HOAs. Some neighborhoods would go straight to hell if they didn't have HOAs because you would have to trust that the residents share a consensus on a lot of things. Personal property rights can infringe upon community property and the rights of others.

[33girl]

What exactly do HOAs do? Just maintain the neighborhood? I guess what I'm asking is what you get out of it, other than a nice looking neighborhood and maybe a pool or kids' park or something.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

What exactly do HOAs do? Just maintain the neighborhood? I guess what I'm asking is what you get out of it, other than a nice looking neighborhood and maybe a pool or kids' park or something.

Pretty much. They try to make sure "rogue homeowners" don't lower the property values in neighborhoods.

A lot of them tend to go a bit too far, though, particularly in Texas. I remember reading about someone getting fined because he had a pickup truck in a "luxury car neighborhood." He was told to park in the garage, but because the truck was so large, it wouldn't fit. He was charged fines monthly.

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I like good HOAs. I hate bad HOAs. Some neighborhoods would go straight to hell if they didn't have HOAs because you would have to trust that the residents share a consensus on a lot of things. Personal property rights can infringe upon community property and the rights of others.

Yes, but something about people telling me what i can do with my property bothers me. But I understand it is important that there be rules since bad neighbors can decrease your home's value, people want them so things are regulated, etc.

[Low C Sharp]

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

Ten thumbs up to this. Anyone who wants to respect Confederate history without invoking segregationist terror has an array of flags to choose from. The KKK never lynched anyone while flying Bonnie Blue. So if you decide to fly the one they did use...as far as I'm concerned, the racist message is loud and clear.

I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American

I really don't get it. I have gratitude to all my ancestors, but if I find out that any of them fought on behalf of the Leninists back in Russia, I won't be flying their hammer-and-sickle flag. I won't call myself a Daughter of the October Revolution, even though I technically won't be able to help it. Even if they made selfless sacrifices on behalf of their ideals, even if the Tsar was an autocrat who starved his people, even if I love Russian culture, I couldn't be proud that my family fought in the army to establish the Soviet system. Interesting historical fact, sure...but proud of that? No.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Ten thumbs up to this. Anyone who wants to respect Confederate history without invoking segregationist terror has an array of flags to choose from. The KKK never lynched anyone while flying Bonnie Blue. So if you decide to fly the one they did use...as far as I'm concerned, the racist message is loud and clear.



I really don't get it. I have gratitude to all my ancestors, but if I find out that any of them fought on behalf of the Leninists back in Russia, I won't be flying their hammer-and-sickle flag. I won't call myself a Daughter of the October Revolution, even though I technically won't be able to help it. Even if they made selfless sacrifices on behalf of their ideals, even if the Tsar was an autocrat who starved his people, even if I love Russian culture, I couldn't be proud that my family fought in the army to establish the Soviet system. Interesting historical fact, sure...but proud of that? No.

Absolutely agree with Low C Sharp here.

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

My father is half German and there was a time many years ago when distant relatives from Germany wanted to get in touch. It was easy enough to figure out that they had been Nazis. My father's reaction was "they're not my f***ing relatives!"

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Absolutely agree with Low C Sharp here.

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

My father is half German and there was a time many years ago when distant relatives from Germany wanted to get in touch. It was easy enough to figure out that they had been Nazis. My father's reaction was "they're not my f***ing relatives!"

EXACTLY. I think people just make excuses and hide behind "those were the times" type of rhetoric. Family or not, heritage or not...wrong is wrong, today and yesterday.

[ElieM]

I was thinking that flying the Nazi flag is not how I would show my Germanic pride. Perhaps more along the lines of the German Confederation flag as that what was probably flying when my forebears departed those shores

[Low C Sharp]

comparing the Nazi Flag to the Confederate flag is just out there

Really? Even though both were used in living memory during the 20th century to display the bearer's support for a nationwide campaign of race-based intimidation, expulsion, and murder? You don't see any parallel? What was the Holocaust but lynching on an industrial scale?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Really? Even though both were used in living memory during the 20th century to display the bearer's support for a nationwide campaign of race-based intimidation, expulsion, and murder? You don't see any parallel? What was the Holocaust but lynching on an industrial scale?

As terrible as both were I do believe that you are comparing molehills to mountains. The Klan (whom I'm assuming you are referring to in regard to the Confederate flag) has historically always been a small right wing fringe group in regards to the general American populace (if they were so well respected or welcomed in the community they wouldn't need to wear hoods). While there have been a few state governors, U.S. Congressman, Senators, and local elected officials who had been members or sympathizers to the cause of the KKK, the U.S. government never had a state sponsored policy or practice of genocide of anyone post Civil War. The Third Reich, on the other hand did, and not just in Germany but any European country they rolled through. Two thirds of all European Jews, millions of Polish, Russian, homosexuals, disabled people, religious minorities, etc..... 17 million total in just a few years.

I'm not trying to have a battle of atrocities with you, but to compare a Confederate to a Nazi is a comparing a molehill to a mountain.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I'm not trying to have a battle of atrocities with you, but to compare a Confederate to a Nazi is a comparing a molehill to a mountain.

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

It's more than just slavery, violence, rape and murder. The rebels did have some legitimate reasons to want to break from the Union other than to commit...rape, murder, torture, genocide.....

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

It's more than just slavery, violence, rape and murder. The rebels did have some legitimate reasons to want to break from the Union other than to commit...rape, murder, torture, genocide.....

No, they really didn't. If you read the secession declarations for each state, they state very clearly that they are seceding because of slavery. They cloak it in "states' rights," but the right the states' right that they are seeking to protect is the right to own slaves.

South Carolina seceded first, so I'll quote its secession statement:

"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy."


My family is from the South. (I'm not.) I appreciate the feelings of pride in Southern heritage. There are things to be proud of, if you are from the South. The Battle Flag isn't one of them.

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

To put a positive spin on why the south wanted to separate and why 130 years later people want to celebrate that I think is a bogus excuse. Going back to the ever-dreaded nazi comparison, the reason they needed to get rid of the Jews was because they were killing the economy. That was part of their thinking... everything that was wrong with Germany was the Jews' fault. So you can say the Swastika represents Germany's economic rebirth if you want. It still means 6 million dead to me. And the rebel flag to me represents a long and abiding dislike of personal freedom of all kinds, hate in it's most uneducated, head in the sand form.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.