Tom Delay: People Are Unemployed Because They Want To Be

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Of course you can. You can come to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all -- that one answer doesn't cover all situations, that every case is different. I know you learned how to do that in law school.

Some people are indeed resting on the dole. Others are doing everything within their power to find work -- any work -- and to make ends meet, but because of the job market in general, inability for one reason or another to move, health issues (their own or family members) or a host of other reasons, it's not happening for them.

The simplistic thinking comes in by assuming that what applies to some people applies to all people.

Well, I could go all philosophical on you and say because no man is an island entire of himself and because we are a society, not a mere collection of individuals, but I really don't think that advances dialogue.

These questions are a somewhat different discussion. I'll readily grant there can be a wide variety of political solutions to the problems of how to deal with the unemployed from total socialism to total reliance on personal and private charity and everything in between. These are hard questions and there are no easy answers. It's easy enough to say "they should find work," but what about children? It's easy enough to say "why should I pay their bills" but what about my (and your) health insurance premiums and other bills that are higher to recoup what others can't pay?

The blithe "well, they just don't really want to work so why should we help them" is a cop-out, a rationalization. It avoids asking the hard political questions about what society's role is or should be and what the implications to society as a whole of doing this, doing that or doing nothing at all actually are.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't mean this as a "Rah, Rah, Welfare." My point is simply that it's a complex and complicated issue (or set of issues) that requires real thinking, not platitudes.

I hope you're right about being gainfully employed the rest of your life. But I wouldn't take that for granted, if I were you. I know too many former lawyers who prove the assumption wrong.

Brilliant, as always! The bolded made me chuckle.

Some of the posts in this thread are...interesting. They must be written by people who have never experienced unforeseen troubles and/or don't know anyone who has. The unemployed range from the average citizen who was always living paycheck to paycheck (some people commenting in this thread are probably doing the same--don't get brand new now and act like you'd be AWESOME if you lost your job)-------to people with PhDs who are standing in unemployment lines.

In fact, ALL of the unemployed people who I know have MBAs, masters, or PhDs. And they have ALL managed to get over the fear and depression to constantly seek employment. As someone said before, they are denied a whole lot of jobs because they are overqualified. Many companies would rather EXPLOIT low wage or moderate wage labor than hire someone with a higher degree who may be more conscious and demanding of everything.

So, many of these people have started their own businesses (thank GOD for savings investment money to invest in a business when you're unemployed, eh?); found SOMEONE who will hire them while they keep their eyes open for a CAREER option instead of a JOB; or done things like gone back to their cleaning business backgrounds and started power washing and cleaning homes for money.

Can you imagine how heartbreaking and time consuming it is to have a DOCTORATE and to be passing out cards for a power washing business where YOU are the main power washer on almost a full-time basis? That can be taxing on your mental and emotional health, your savings account (you have to buy things in order to clean things), and you possibly can't tend to your family as well because your new job isn't like your former position in your CAREER.

The people who are fucking the system are the EXCEPTION, just as with social welfare. People are giving the exception too much weight. It goes without saying that people who fuck the system should not get over on the system. DUH.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Of course you can. You can come to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all -- that one answer doesn't cover all situations, that every case is different. I know you learned how to do that in law school.

But if you keep expanding the definition of who is not responsible for their own problems to include folks that are out of work for 6+ months, 8+ months, 12+ months, etc., then you have to admit that a lot of commonalities are going to emerge between these cases which are somehow different. Do you think there should be no cutoff? That there should be a guaranteed minimum income which should continue indefinitely?

The simplistic thinking comes in by assuming that what applies to some people applies to all people.

Maybe it is simplistic. But this nation is running on credit. Expanding expenditures in these currently proposed manners without expanding income is going to impact a lot of us down the line. When your nation's number one export is debt, maybe simplistic thinking is what is needed if this less simplistic thinking of yours has led to the current situation.

Well, I could go all philosophical on you and say because no man is an island entire of himself and because we are a society, not a mere collection of individuals, but I really don't think that advances dialogue.

These questions are a somewhat different discussion. I'll readily grant there can be a wide variety of political solutions to the problems of how to deal with the unemployed from total socialism to total reliance on personal and private charity and everything in between. These are hard questions and there are no easy answers. It's easy enough to say "they should find work," but what about children? It's easy enough to say "why should I pay their bills" but what about my (and your) health insurance premiums and other bills that are higher to recoup what others can't pay?

With my health insurance, I get to choose my risk pool and pay for the coverage voluntarily. If I don't pay my taxes because I don't want to be a part of that particular risk pool, I go to jail. I see that you're trying to correlate those two things, but private insurance and public entitlements aren't as comparable as you suggest.

The blithe "well, they just don't really want to work so why should we help them" is a cop-out, a rationalization. It avoids asking the hard political questions about what society's role is or should be and what the implications to society as a whole of doing this, doing that or doing nothing at all actually are.

Clearly, simplistically, you think society's role should be bigger, I think it should be a lot smaller. My way we can afford. Your way sinks us into a deeper and deeper hole.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I can hardly come to any other conclusion though. If someone spends however many months on the dole as are currently allowed and has yet to find a job, when does the blame shift from the economy or somesuch other nebulous entity to the individual? Does it ever shift?

And let's just assume all of these "It's not their fault" premises ad arguendo. Why are their problems my problems? Why must I and other taxpayers continue to watch the money I spend in taxes go to solve their problems? Pay their bills? Bail them out? I don't think anyone could reasonably believe that the current federal fiscal irresponsibility can continue indefinitely. But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life, will get to bear a lot more than my fair share in paying it back. But I guess I shouldn't have a problem with that?

This is stupid. When you do your taxes, do you get a refund of all the money that you've paid out in taxes for the year? If not, why do you mind that it's being used to help people who are in need (I can agree that not everyone who receives assistance needs it for as long as they get it)? As libramunoz stated, you can't force someone to hire you. I comment all the time that companies post jobs (sometimes they stay open for months) but it seems like they never hire anyone. What are people supposed to do? Take to begging in the streets? I hope that you do stay employed for life because if you don't, I hope you'll be just as angry at your self for having to live off of our tax monies.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by bosaco

There are tons of jobs in health care

Ok, like all your n-word posts weren't offensive enough.

If I hear one more person say in ANY context "there are sooooo many jobs in health care" in any context I'm gonna fucking take them out with a tube sock full of wood screws.

The LAST thing we need in this country is people who are only working in health care because that's the only thing that is available. There are enough screwups going on as it is. I'm sick of people trying to push people into this shit field.

[libramunoz]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I can hardly come to any other conclusion though. If someone spends however many months on the dole as are currently allowed and has yet to find a job, when does the blame shift from the economy or somesuch other nebulous entity to the individual? Does it ever shift?

And let's just assume all of these "It's not their fault" premises ad arguendo. Why are their problems my problems? Why must I and other taxpayers continue to watch the money I spend in taxes go to solve their problems? Pay their bills? Bail them out? I don't think anyone could reasonably believe that the current federal fiscal irresponsibility can continue indefinitely. But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life, will get to bear a lot more than my fair share in paying it back. But I guess I shouldn't have a problem with that?

I'm just gonna start here with YOUR statement.

I pay my OWN DAMN TAXES--what I get in unemployment DOES NOT COME FROM YOU! It comes from what I HAVE PUT INTO THE SYSTEM THROUGH MY OWN AMOUNT OF WORK!

Sorry, Kevin, you don't pay my bills-from my water to my student loans, you don't pay SHIT of mine-but if you'd like to, go right ahead! Want my address-I'll send you the bills!

You then make this weak ass argument of:"Why are their problems my problems?" Here's a clue for you Kevin, MY PROBLEMS AREN'T YOUR PROBLEMS...HELL, YOU COULDN'T HANDLE THEM! If you want my problems, be my guest, but again, the minute you got them, you'd throw them right back at me and say, DDDDAAAAAYYYYYMMMMNNN, now THOSE are problems!

Now you dumbly make the statement that "I, who will st ill be gainfully employed for the rest of my life" are living in a total world of farce, or is it the World of Witchcraft, I seem to forget! Either way, they are both fictional and both full of fantasy.

Sorry, but last time I checked, your name isn't God and you control NOTHING! You cannot say when you will check out of here through death. That is something that you have NO CONTROL over! I'm so sorry to inform you of this, so just get over it and get over it quickly.
Moreover, how do you know that you will have this job for eternity? Whose to say that something won't happen 5 minutes from now and the job you have goes into the world of vanishing. It happens, and it happens on a daily basis. People who thought that they had "good jobs" are losing them left and right in this country so that people can continue to have A job period.

This is something that happens on a daily basis. For example, older workers, who tend to have higher salaries, are being offered "early retirement" or in some cases even a forced retirement. Why for cutbacks, in order to make room for new joe college grad that would definetly make less, and in order to keep their own jobs secure.
This is the real world, this is something that happens everyday. Why don't you look at some of the cases that you are representing. Cases where people are suing companies in order to keep them employed, pay back salaries for inappropriate firings, and to keep health insurance going for them when the company fired them because their health needs were appearing to "supercede" the needs of the company.

This is something that happens everyday! As it was said in the movie School Daze, WAKE UP! Stop trying to deny the fact that someone being unemployed is a) what they want, b) what they desire, c) what they look forward to, and d) is their own damn fault! It just ain't so!

Then you decide to make the statement of: "If someone spends however many months on the dole as are currently allowed and has yet to find a job, when does the blame shift from the economy or somesuch other nebulous entity to the individual? Does it ever shift?"
AGAIN I say to you, when you are unemployed, what are you supposed to do? When you have tried, tried, and tried to find and get a job, what in the hell are you supposed to do?

I can say, that yes, I was grateful when Congress extended unemployment benefits, it has helped me in a) not being on welfare for susistence and b) helped me in being able to retain some sense of oh...human value/worth by being able to PAY MY OWN BILLS.

Sorry, get the hell up out of your gilded cage and get into the real world. Step into the real world of life and let some of that shit hit you in the face. Smell what poverty can do and has done to some people. Step into the light of not having lights and not having water. Step into the reality of a homeless shelter with families, with parents that have degrees but don't have anywhere else to go. Step into displaced families that are living with each other in order to survive and help have a place to stay. Step into reality and then come back and tell me this same shit. I bet you won't because you would have gained the basic thing that you lack, HUMILITY AND EMPATHY.

I don't ask you to be sympathatic for me, I do consider myself on of the blessed ones in life. But you need to see how others consider you.

[Lil' Hannah]

Originally Posted by libramunoz

I pay my OWN DAMN TAXES--what I get in unemployment DOES NOT COME FROM YOU! It comes from what I HAVE PUT INTO THE SYSTEM THROUGH MY OWN AMOUNT OF WORK!

Actually, employers pay SUTA (State Unemployment Tax Act) taxes which unemployed workers draw benefits from. Employees do not pay directly into unemployment tax accounts.

But that's really neither here nor there at this point in the discussion...

[libramunoz]

Yes, when the system was designed in 1935, it was designed as a system of relief for those that needed help. It was designed along with the SSA, the CCC, and Medicare/Medicaid. It was designed because of the fact that there was a major depression within the country, and FDR was trying his hardest to get people to eat within the country while being able to maintain some sense of dignity while being able to stimulate the economy.

The truth of the matter is that it almost didn't work and the country almost remained within a depressive state UNTIL America entered into WWII as of Dec. 1941. That's just a matter of fact.

However, what people DON'T look at is the fact that MOST people that get on AFDC, Welfare, Assistance, Aid, TANF, whatever a person wants to call it, they get OFF of it within 3 to 5 months. It's just a stated fact and this is something that people tend to overlook in quoting or stating that people that get on welfare, blah, blah, blah.

I'm sorry, I have read these comments on here and am virtually disgusted in what I am reading. Yes, it's just my opinion, and no I shouldn't take things personally, however, being currently unemployed, it becomes a slightly personal matter.

People tend to act like when you're unemployed, you want to be there. They act like you don't want to get up and go to work. They act like you cannot envy those who have a job and wish to God it was you going with them. But hell, the truth of the matter is, sometimes, it just ain't so.

I can say that I don't like being unemployed. I hate it above many things in my life. I can't say that I haven't tried to get a job. But I cannot make people hire me. I cannot go into an office and point a gun and say, "would you hire me, pppppllllleeeeeaaaassssee?" It just ain't gonna work.

It's not easy being in this poisition. Trust me. You get the "look" when people ask you what are you doing and you say, "well, I'm currently unemployed..." and you can say that I'm doing volunteer work with the Girl Scouts or for the church, and people inadvertenly (?) give you the "look." As if to say, "you lazy, trifling, blah, blah, blah."

But what people fail to look at is that you too are struggling with paying your bills, trying to find a job, trying to juggle temp jobs, hell, just trying to find a temp job. You too are wondering how are you going to have enough food, water, lights in order to survive until the next day. You too are wondering how are you gonna make it. You still struggle to survive. It's not a position that you WANT to be in, hell, sometimes, you just find yourself in it.

I can personally testify that having been out of a job for this long, I do long to have that 8 to 5, 12 to 6, hell even 7 to 11, I wouldn't care, it's a job and it helps to pay my bills. Maybe Delay needs to stop and see how long he would be able to last if he had to be unemployed and if he had no health insurance and if all he could be able to rely on is unemployment. Maybe he needs to try this for a few days and see if it's something that he could then understand and back off in saying that people who are unemployed just don't want to work.

I'm sorry it isn't about others coming into this country and working, it's not about being able to just jump up and start a business, it's not about it being a person that lives in the country or about a person that lives in a ghetto or barrio. It is about being able to survive when you are wondering if your lights are going to be on the next day, being able to survive when you don't know how to pay the water bill, being able to survive when you're hungry and being able to have the faith to be able to stay sane during your time of trial and tribulation.

Sorry about the rant, but this just seemed to strike a wrong nerve within me. O.k., back to slightly normal and jumping off the soapbox.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by libramunoz

Yes, when the system was designed in 1935, it was designed as a system of relief for those that needed help. It was designed along with the SSA, the CCC, and Medicare/Medicaid. It was designed because of the fact that there was a major depression within the country, and FDR was trying his hardest to get people to eat within the country while being able to maintain some sense of dignity while being able to stimulate the economy.

The truth of the matter is that it almost didn't work and the country almost remained within a depressive state UNTIL America entered into WWII as of Dec. 1941. That's just a matter of fact.

However, what people DON'T look at is the fact that MOST people that get on AFDC, Welfare, Assistance, Aid, TANF, whatever a person wants to call it, they get OFF of it within 3 to 5 months. It's just a stated fact and this is something that people tend to overlook in quoting or stating that people that get on welfare, blah, blah, blah.

I'm sorry, I have read these comments on here and am virtually disgusted in what I am reading. Yes, it's just my opinion, and no I shouldn't take things personally, however, being currently unemployed, it becomes a slightly personal matter.

People tend to act like when you're unemployed, you want to be there. They act like you don't want to get up and go to work. They act like you cannot envy those who have a job and wish to God it was you going with them. But hell, the truth of the matter is, sometimes, it just ain't so.

I can say that I don't like being unemployed. I hate it above many things in my life. I can't say that I haven't tried to get a job. But I cannot make people hire me. I cannot go into an office and point a gun and say, "would you hire me, pppppllllleeeeeaaaassssee?" It just ain't gonna work.

It's not easy being in this poisition. Trust me. You get the "look" when people ask you what are you doing and you say, "well, I'm currently unemployed..." and you can say that I'm doing volunteer work with the Girl Scouts or for the church, and people inadvertenly (?) give you the "look." As if to say, "you lazy, trifling, blah, blah, blah."

But what people fail to look at is that you too are struggling with paying your bills, trying to find a job, trying to juggle temp jobs, hell, just trying to find a temp job. You too are wondering how are you going to have enough food, water, lights in order to survive until the next day. You too are wondering how are you gonna make it. You still struggle to survive. It's not a position that you WANT to be in, hell, sometimes, you just find yourself in it.

I can personally testify that having been out of a job for this long, I do long to have that 8 to 5, 12 to 6, hell even 7 to 11, I wouldn't care, it's a job and it helps to pay my bills. Maybe Delay needs to stop and see how long he would be able to last if he had to be unemployed and if he had no health insurance and if all he could be able to rely on is unemployment. Maybe he needs to try this for a few days and see if it's something that he could then understand and back off in saying that people who are unemployed just don't want to work.

I'm sorry it isn't about others coming into this country and working, it's not about being able to just jump up and start a business, it's not about it being a person that lives in the country or about a person that lives in a ghetto or barrio. It is about being able to survive when you are wondering if your lights are going to be on the next day, being able to survive when you don't know how to pay the water bill, being able to survive when you're hungry and being able to have the faith to be able to stay sane during your time of trial and tribulation.

Sorry about the rant, but this just seemed to strike a wrong nerve within me. O.k., back to slightly normal and jumping off the soapbox.

Great post. I agree.

[AGDee]

Not to mention, it isn't as though, on unemployment, you're receiving the kind of salary you would be making as an MBA or with a Masters in Health Administration. My ex got 50% of his pay as severance for 5 months and he just started unemployment this month. He's getting even less than that now. He worked continuously as an accountant and then a financial analyst for 23 years. He's paid his share of taxes over those years. He's anything but lazy but he's trying desperately to keep the house he's been paying for since 1992. My neighbor who lost her house had been paying on it for 20 years! It was auctioned for less than 1/3 of what she still owed on it. All the money she put into it, all the repairs, all the taxes she paid on it and all she has now is a bad credit rating to show for it. She would have gladly paid everything she owed, if they'd reduced her payment and extended the mortgage out 10 more years.

All of the people I know personally who are laid off are professionals with degrees. They aren't leaving the state because they have houses here, they have spouses who have jobs here and don't want to risk both of them not having jobs. Or, they are court ordered to stay within 100 miles of their ex-spouse because of custody arrangements. They are struggling and are desperate to be working. And obviously retailers are not going to hire someone with an MBA because they know they will be gone the minute they find a job in their career specialty.

People who think like Delay are simply out of touch with reality.

As for welfare, states make the majority of those decisions. There is no such thing as welfare in Michigan. There is Aid for Dependent Children, for people with children and it amounts to peanuts. Those who receive it have to attend job workshops, trainings, and prove that they've filled out a certain number of job applications a week. There is section 8 housing, most of which is barely above code and in really awful neighborhoods. There are food stamps (the bridge card, here), which amounts to something like $110 a month and can only be used for food, not toilet paper, not shampoo or soap, etc. There are food banks which are completely and totally overwhelmed. There are limits on how long you can be on ADC too. And yes, there are charitable organizations like Christ.net who have roaming homeless shelters in churches, but they too, are overwhelmed.

There are people who scam the system. There always will be. The majority, however, are desperately trying to get back on their feet and find jobs.

My ex has an interview a week from Monday. He's been in talks with this company since early January. He's among their top 3 candidates so we're praying hard and keeping our fingers crossed. I can't carry all of us much longer without going into massive debt myself. This situation sucks for everybody involved and to imply any differently is just crazy.

[DaemonSeid]

Let me offer this into evidence:

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/loca...ousands-030810

[sceniczip]

I think what irritates me is the only person I know who is unemployed is just totally using the system. She found out she's losing her house and just said "oh well they won't take it for at least a year so whatever." She was offered a job and didn't take it because she couldn't ride her bike there even though she drives her car everyday to the barn where she has a horse. Since I know no one else who's unemployed that colors my opinion and could make me think most people just are misusing the system. I know that's not true because of things other people have said but I can see how people could have bad opinions about people who are unemployed/on welfare.

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by sceniczip

I think what irritates me is the only person I know who is unemployed is just totally using the system. She found out she's losing her house and just said "oh well they won't take it for at least a year so whatever." She was offered a job and didn't take it because she couldn't ride her bike there even though she drives her car everyday to the barn where she has a horse. Since I know no one else who's unemployed that colors my opinion and could make me think most people just are misusing the system. I know that's not true because of things other people have said but I can see how people could have bad opinions about people who are unemployed/on welfare.

But there is a maturity & intelligence that one must have to recognize that the ONE person on unemployment you know, doesn't represent the millions (?) that are currently unemployed.

[Ggirl617]

If I really needed to, I could go out and get a job today. It might not be anything I want, but at least something. Is this not true for everyone (save the mentally and physically handicapped)?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Ggirl617

If I really needed to, I could go out and get a job today. It might not be anything I want, but at least something. Is this not true for everyone (save the mentally and physically handicapped)?

Go out and try it.

If you are like many of the (overqualified) people looking, I'm betting you won't.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Go out and try it.

If you are like many of the (overqualified) people looking, I'm betting you won't.

Yep.

Also, in areas with colleges and universities, some employers save the more menial and low wage jobs for the collegiates (or the noncollegiate equivalent).

*****
I think I told my story of short term unemployment that happened many years ago when the country was NOT in a recession. I was between graduate degrees and I wanted a summer job to tie me over instead of getting unemployment checks. I thought I found an excellent option for something that was just "good enough for now." I was the only person in the applicant pool with more than a high school diploma (they discovered that in the background checks). They let me sit through the interview presentation and called me in the back room to tell me they thought hiring me would be torturous for me and challenging to them. They said this isn't the job for me because it requires a HUNGER that someone with education and career/salary potential is ASSUMED not to have.

Thank God I just needed it for the SUMMER. Had I needed it for the longterm or to support a family, that would've really sucked. I ended up getting unemployment checks.