Princeton sends letter to parents regarding concerns about Greek Life

[SydneyK]

I think it's funny that you average less than one post a year and yet, when you crawl out of the woodwork, we're supposed to take you seriously.

[littleowl33]

Originally Posted by Imus

Princton is not much different than Harvard, bucko.

I have been to Princeton many times. I don't see too many blacks on campus. The minorities on campus are mostly Asian or Indian.

Ok, I'm lost. What does the racial diversity of the student body have to do with Greek Life at Princeton?

[Imus]

Originally Posted by littleowl33

Ok, I'm lost. What does the racial diversity of the student body have to do with Greek Life at Princeton?

If the student body is not diverse then it is not likely that campus organizations such as eating clubs or greeks will be diverse. It is relevant because the President specifically criticized the greeks for being exclusive.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Imus

Princton is not much different than Harvard, bucko.


I have been to Princeton many times. I don't see too many blacks on campus. The minorities on campus are mostly Asian or Indian.

What's your point? We weren't talking about the number of blacks on campus.

[littleowl33]

Originally Posted by Imus

If the student body is not diverse then it is not likely that campus organizations such as eating clubs or greeks will be diverse. It is relevant because the President specifically criticized the greeks for being exclusive.

Here I assume by "diverse", you're referring to African-American students, not Asian or South Asian/Indian students. My University, Johns Hopkins, has pretty similar diversity statistics:

Caucasian: 47%
Asian/Pacific Islander: 24%
African-American/Black: 7%
Hispanic/Latino-Latina: 7%
Native American: 1%
Other: 7%
International: 7%
(apply.jhu.edu)

And as referenced in the earlier article, Princeton has 8% Black students, 1/3 of which are considered African-American, not African immigrants. I don't know how many of the black Hopkins students are African-American as opposed to African.

Back on track. I don't know what percentage of JHU Greeks are black, but it is not a huge number. In the fraternities, it is probably similar to 7%. In the NPC sororities, it is less than 7%. I'll use my sorority as a pretty typical example. My sorority had 85 members this spring, of which 2 identified themselves as black. One was from America but (I believe) her parents were Jamaican, and one was African-American, Hispanic and Chinese. If we're looking at other minorities, we had 5 South Asian/Indian women and 9 Asian women. That breaks down to 2.3% black, 5.8% South Asian/Indian and 10.5% Asian.

That is less diverse than the general diversity statistics for the University, but probably very similar to the diversity stats for the women who went through recruitment. We certainly welcome diversity in our sororities, and I have heard sorority women say that they wish their group was more diverse. There is absolutely no prejudice against minority women going through recruitment, and I would go as far to say that they might have an easier time getting a bid because groups want to become more diverse. (As a side note - is that racist against the white students? Who knows. )

I don't know why fewer minority women go through recruitment. There are a few groups specifically for minority students, but they're small. Last semester Sigma Omicron Pi and alpha Kappa Delta Phi (the two "Asian-Interest" sororities on campus) had only 31 sisters combined - and some of those women were Caucasian or African-American. The only Latina sorority, Lambda Pi Chi, had only 5 members. The only African-American fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha, had only 5 members. The University used to have chapters of Delta Sigma Theta, Sigma Gamma Rho and Alpha Kappa Alpha , but they are no longer recognized - they chose to give up University recognition in order to recruit outside the student body because they couldn't sustain their numbers. I don't know how many members they have now, but it is not many. In Spring 2008, the last semester they were recognized, the three had only 18 sisters combined. Delta Xi Phi, JHU's only multicultural sorority, had 29 members this Spring, over half of whom I know to be Caucasian (and the rest mostly Asian).

So - a lot of unanswered questions. Even GLOs created specifically for members of certain enthnic groups fall far short of attracting the number of women they should, given how represented those minorities are at the University. Heck, white students represent less than half of the student body at JHU, but the majority of the Greek women are white.

I don't know why this is, but given that our diversity stats and campus culture are pretty similar to Princeton's, I would hazard to guess that they're in a similar situation.

Maybe someone else will have better insight on the reasons why this happens.

ETA: This probably should be in a different thread... it's not really what we were discussing in the first place. But relating it back to the point: I don't think Greek Life is exclusionary to certain ethnic groups. Though minorities are underrepresented in the sororities at my school, it is probably because they also tend not to go through recruitment. Those who do almost always seem to be sought after and placed since the sororities seem to actively seek to become more diverse. If there were a large number of minority women rushing and not being placed/getting heavy cuts, I would see more of an issue.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by littleowl33

The University used to have chapters of Delta Sigma Theta, Sigma Gamma Rho and Alpha Kappa Alpha , but they are no longer recognized - they chose to give up University recognition in order to recruit outside the student body because they couldn't sustain their numbers. I don't know how many members they have now, but it is not many. In Spring 2008, the last semester they were recognized, the three had only 18 sisters combined.

It is possible they became part of a citywide chapter, which encompasses several schools. Just wanted to clarify that "recruiting outside the student body" does not mean they are recruiting nonstudents.

--->getting back in my lane to let someone who knows better elaborate.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by Imus

Harvard? There is a model for diversity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/ed...FFI.final.html


Is 1/3 of 8%, considered diversity?

Diversity means more than just blacks and whites. If a campus was half white and half black, I would say that that is NOT diverse. Asians, Hispanics, international students contribute a lot to diversity, too. But really I was addressing the financial diversity of the student body, which only sometimes has racial correlations. I haven't seen the statistics, but I bet the majority of financial aid students at the Ivies are white.

Also, you should try finding an article more recent than 2004. I believe the more generous financial aid policies began after 2004.

[littleowl33]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It is possible they became part of a citywide chapter, which encompasses several schools. Just wanted to clarify that "recruiting outside the student body" does not mean they are recruiting nonstudents.

--->getting back in my lane to let someone who knows better elaborate.

What I was told by the Greek Life office is that they were unable to sustain their numbers with Hopkins students alone, so they started recruiting non-Hopkins members. This violates the agreement the school has with the groups (probably for insurance reasons - they can't cover non-students) and the school gave them 18 months to cease and desist. They all chose not to, and were thus de-recognized by the school. They still recruit JHU students, wear their letters, etc. and the school doesn't really mind. But as long as the chapter includes people who are not Hopkins students (whether or not they're college students at other schools) they can't be recognized. I'm not sure if they went city-wide or not.

[LadySunshine]

Originally Posted by tld221

See, if i was the administration trying to reach parents with the message of "greeks bad, other social clubs good," i would use hard numbers and stats of these risk management incidents, not "greeks exclude people and only provide social comfort."

because like greek orgs (and referring to Munchkin03), some eating clubs are pretty exclusive/selective, and others are more all-encompassing. so in that respect they go hand in hand.

I believe there is a lot of misconception floating around about Princeton and Greeks. The school is not promoting a message of Greeks bad Social clubs good." The school essentially wants to marginalize and possibly eliminate both systems. The creation of a 4 year college was one step the school is taking in that direction. For the most part many of the eating clubs and certain Greek letter organizations are loosely associated with each other.
I personally think the exclusive argument is kind of inane coming from an exclusive institution but that is another story altogether.

The administration has been pressed before on the policy and the letter sent out is the closest I've seen to a formal stance from the University. Because the policy has been nebulous when GLOs first came to campus approval may have been tacit. As years went by the administration and in particular the Board of Trustees began to disapprove of Greeks and formed a decidedly non-recognition stance. By then many organizations had already been chartered or did not require the University's approval to establish a new charter. Since then, that stance has been held as a tradition. Furthermore, some groups on campus were in favor of deferred rush while others were not but then that created a scenario in which the school would recognize some groups and not others. They did not want to do that.

Bottom line some groups cared more about recognition than others. However, the administration has the perspective of all or nothing. So unless a compromise can be reached or all parties get on the same page, I don't see recognition happening soon. Moreover, since the Trustees (aka pursestrings) are behind the non-recognition and view it as a tradition, it will be very difficult to overturn.

On the topic of socio-economic representation: There is a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds at Princeton. Approximately half pay the full tuition and the other half receive some form of aid. Princeton pioneered the "no-loan" student policy in 2002. Harvard and others followed suit. Because of the no-loan policy many are able to afford Princeton and even graduate virtually debt-free. The eating clubs however are not covered by financial aid and thus students have to take out loans for the cost.

This may be one of the many reasons why some students do not pledge the NPC organizations. Many minorities already don't join eating clubs because of the prohibitively high costs so financing the cost of a sorority as well may discourage them or be viewed as an unnecessary expense. Furthermore, many students may be concerned with balancing the academic stress and sorority responsibilities. The academics are ridiculously rigorous for no apparent reason, so many students especially first generation college students and minorities focus on adjusting to the campus.

Sorry for the long post. Hope that answered many of the questions.

[Low C Sharp]

The academics are ridiculously rigorous for no apparent reason

You can't think of any reason for a university to be academically rigorous? For PRINCETON to be academically rigorous?

If that's not what you're looking for, don't go to Princeton. It's not like they pulled some kind of bait-and-switch where they advertise themselves as a laid-back party school and then freshmen are shocked to discover high academic standards.
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[LadySunshine]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

You can't think of any reason for a university to be academically rigorous? For PRINCETON to be academically rigorous?

If that's not what you're looking for, don't go to Princeton. It's not like they pulled some kind of bait-and-switch where they advertise themselves as a laid-back party school and then freshmen are shocked to discover high academic standards.

Maybe that didn't come of right. I was being a bit facetious. I was conveying a running feeling among many of the students that we were being academically hazed. I graduated from there so I know first hand the rigor of the requirements, thrived and loved every minute of the experience. I wouldn't trade the research opportunities I had there. However, when comparing notes with friends from peer institutions it seemed the school definitely demanded a more stressful academic load than our peer institutions and worked more aggressively to combat grade inflation, thus the student body seemed to do a needlessly excessive amount of work.

[tallgreekalum]

Is anyone on this thread actually a Princetonian?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Is anyone on this thread actually a Princetonian?

I don't know whether anyone on this thread is, but in other threads where basically the same thing has come up, like this one, there have been Princetonians.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Is anyone on this thread actually a Princetonian?

I believe LadySunshine just said that she graduated from Princeton.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I believe LadySunshine just said that she graduated from Princeton.

LOL. So much for my reading skills today. Ready for the weekend I am.