Here is the real problem!

[aurora_borealis]

ThetaXi -

Here is a link to the Tenants Union, which is based in Seattle. You can call them at (206) 723-0500, or go by their office at 3902 S. Ferdinand St. in Seattle. They are a nonprofit so be patient if you can't get through. http://www.tenantsunion.org/


I found the definitions of the Washington LandLord Tenant Act and though it doesn't specify fraternity houses, it does mention housing in conjunciton with education http://search.leg.wa.gov/wslrcw/RCW%...018%20.040.htm under number 1.

However, as everyone said, GO TO A LAWYER.

[imsohappythatiama]

Wait...you keep contradicting yourself, and it isn't adding any crediblity to your argument.

First you say:

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
We do have a strict no alcohol or tobacco policy which everyone abides by.

But then in the next sentence, you say:

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
Alcohol and toboacco was found. No illicit drugs by any means. Not to mention the alcohol was found only in people rooms that were 21 years of age. They also said that empty beer bottles were also illegal by the "contract".

If "everyone abides" by your "strict policy" banning alcohol and tobacco from the chapter facility, then why were those substances found (including empties)? Clearly not everyone abides by the policy!

Next, you say:

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
...our alumni corporation is doing a horrible job. They have no trust form the undergraduates as well as no control and respect. But that is just my opinion.

Ummm...OF COURSE they don't have trust for your chapter--your members have VIOLATED POLICIES...policies for which they are responsible for enforcing and maintaining as legal guarantors of your facility.

One earns trust and respect--one doesn't demand it. Perhaps you'd have better relations with your Board if you would think harder on that point.

One last thing. You write:

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
The real problem is that the alumni never really supported our house in the first place.

I believe that they MUST support and care about your chapter to have signed their names as guarantors on your mortgage--do you realize what an incredible personal risk that is for each guarantor? Believe me, no one who "does not support" a chapter would incurr such a serious personal and financial risk just to torture some undergraduates.

I am certain you are in the middle of a bad situation between your chapter and your Board, but it sounds like BOTH sides have a case of bad attitudes.

You can't control their attitudes, but you can control yours.

[SigKapKatzue]

I'm a collegiate and I totally understand that to an extent-- I would hate to think of people rifling thorugh my belongings or taking cigarettes or penalizing me for them.

However drinking in the house is risk managemet and a big issue that could get your charter pulled or house lost on my campus-- and I think that if the alum want to handle it within the fraternity and not get you expelled or in trouble with the college, but deal it on their basis, then they are smart!!! In that case, then i can understand both sides completely.

Try to talk it out with them, this sounds rather one sided on your part. No alum could be that beastly, and I truly doubt they are. try talking about why they want to search-- it sounds that they have reason. and tell your frat if they want to drink, to do so away from the house to avoid any kind of problems... i don't understand why you would even want to represent yoruself that horribly-- please don't defend the house-- it sounds like a horrible issue.

[bruinaphi]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
Is it legal for them to have us sign a document giving them the right to search rooms whenever they want. Their argument: the house does not fall under the landlord-tenant act and that therefore gives them a window to this. The reason: They want to be able to make sure that we are not drinking in the house which is understandable, but what is protecting us from them?

Issue one: What keeps them from taking something of ours if its after hours or we aren't there. Also, they recently did a room raid during spring break of last year when there was three guys in the house. It just seems wrong.

Issue Two: Aren't we giving up one of our freedoms if we allow searches of personal space?

It is likely that this is totally legal. The Bill of Rights only protects you from searches and seizures by the GOVERNMENT. Theta Xi is not the government. The Landlord Tennant laws do and don't apply based on state laws and I am not familiar with those of Washington, but it is likely that they don't matter b/c you are not really a tenant, you likely fall under another classification such as border. Fraternities and sororities do not create a landlord tennant relationship on purpose. That is b/c unlike a traditional landlord they have a lot more liability for your actions on the property and they have to carry insurance that traditional landlords don't have to carry. As a result you give up some of your traditional renting rights to live there. When you make the decision to join a chapter and live in the house you make the decisions to abide by the organizations rules. You can choose to be or not to be a part of your organization. If you don't like the way your alumnae conduct searches talk to your corp board president about it.

[DGMarie]

Originally posted by bruinaphi
It is likely that this is totally legal. The Bill of Rights only protects you from searches and seizures by the GOVERNMENT. Theta Xi is not the government.

If, however, you sign a waiver saying they can search at will, you are at their mercy. This is similar to joining a homeowners association. If the association says you cannot build a fence, and everything else, including the local town ordinance, says building fences are just dandy, you CANNOT build one.

Here's another one: the govt says you can put up a HAM radio antenna in your yard. The village/town you live in say you can, but your HOMEOWNERS association does not allow them. Guess what? You cannot put one in or they will sue you and win. But wait, you say, the govt says these antennas are legal. Your rights ended when you voluntarily agreed to the terms and conditions of the association. You cannot join in and then cry foul later.

Once again, supporting the thread of get thee to a lawyer.

[ThetaxiUW]

In response to my many antagonists...

It is likely that this is totally legal. The Bill of Rights only protects you from searches and seizures by the GOVERNMENT. Theta Xi is not the government.

As a non-profit organization, they thus become a instrument of the government and are controlled by the governement. This argument would give anyone the ability to search your room. Since Joe Schmoe isn't apart of the government he can search Jay's room.

And perhaps if we are able to sign away our rights to provate organizations, we shoudl still be able to obtain renters insurance (which our contract says we can get) but contradicts itself because we can't obtain this renters insurance with their search rule. So whats with that.

However drinking in the house is risk managemet and a big issue that could get your charter pulled or house lost on my campus-- and I think that if the alum want to handle it within the fraternity and not get you expelled or in trouble with the college, but deal it on their basis, then they are smart!!! In that case, then i can understand both sides completely.

Your campus.

I believe that they MUST support and care about your chapter to have signed their names as guarantors on your mortgage--do you realize what an incredible personal risk that is for each guarantor? Believe me, no one who "does not support" a chapter would incurr such a serious personal and financial risk just to torture some undergraduates.

Although you did bring up some great points of contradiction and when I said the house members abide by I truly meant the the "house" abides by. This means that the house will never host any event or party where alcohol is served unless it is served by a third party vendor. That means no wet parties or anything where there would be a risk managment issue to any outside party involved. The house understands the reasoning and abides by it. Now personal issues with each member I cannot and do not know. But if someone did have alcohol or a cigar, its there personal issue and they will punished occordingly. $100 fine for firsts and then kicked out on second offense.

2nd issue: They did not have a signed contract. They never handed them out to anyone. They just had a copy for themselves which no one signed. They decided not to fine or kick anyone out once they realized that. Does that sound like good managment?

3rd Issue: Again I would like to point out that I am not an active an do not live there right now. Its really amazing how many recent alumni want to change this but because one guy wants to be able to check lock boxes in someones room at any time, we're stuck. So take it as you will, but this isn't right. And we do have many poeple checking into this not just me. A couple recent alumni like myself who are in law school. Just thought that maybe someone may have delt with a similar issue.

J

[Tom Earp]

Regardless of what you might say, there is still an implied cotract. Reason being, that there have been contracts signed before hand, there for setting a precident of the implied rule to abide by the previous rules and regulation over a said period of time. This is not just now, this is what the history is previous contracts..

Until you and your Org can show just reason to not have them dictate, then you have to follow the rules laid out before you!

You still do not explain totally the total situation! You keep skirting it and until the total picture comes out, then it is really hard for anyone to make a true decision.

Contact a Lawyer! Period!

[ThetaxiUW]

Here we go. The tenants union came through.

Unenforceable Clauses

Some clauses that appear in a lease or rental agreement are not expressly prohibited by the Landlord-Tenant Act, but are still unenforceable clauses that often appear in the form of leases and rental agreements. These include the following:

An agreement that your landlord can take your property if you get behind in your rent.

An agreement allowing your landlord to come into your dwelling at any time, without notice.

An agreement that you will pay for all damage to your place, regardless of whether it was your fault or not.

An agreement that if your landlord has to take you to court, you will pay double the amount the court decides you owe

And in case your wondering...

ENFORCEABLE - A right or obligation is enforceable if the party obligated can be forced or ordered to comply through a legal process.

So the room searches are not legal.

Case solved.

Thank you Aurora_Borealis and Tom Earp and others.

That was all I was really wondering.

I guess the other thing is that the alumni searched our (I was living in the house at the time) rooms already. We can technically sue them then. Not saying that anyone will. We just want them to not do gestapo searches while everyone is on SPring Break or something like that.

[Tom Earp]

Hopefully now that you have this information, you or the Active Chapter can present it to them. I would then ask, that there be a sit down discussion of the situation.

Now that it is in black and white, and the illegalities of it, they will become more understanding of the Chapter feelings.

As a member of the house Corporation, I always did a walk through the House! But never the private rooms unless invited in.

You being an Alum now, it needs to be explined, that there needs to be mutual trust between Actives and Alums as You are all Brothers.

What school was this? I did check greekpages and saw one fantastic House!!!

The very best Luck in the future!!!!!!!!!!

[DGMarie]

Before you go on Spring Break, change your locks!

[ThetaxiUW]

can't against the rental agreement

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
However, good news is is that they cannot pull their money out due to the mortgage. They are required to sign a document that guarantees the house for every 4 or 5 years. They just resigned it during the summer. So they cannot pull their money without finding a replacement guarantor. But its not like we are going to do something horrible or anything anways. I just want to know if this is legal what they are doing or not?

On another note, if there is no organization that protects greeks from living arrangments like this or creates standard guidelines for rules and regulations of greek houses, there sure as hell should be!

In regards to guaranteeing the house - there have been situations where this has happened. In the blink of an eye, an error in judgement was made by the actives, which caused the pulling of the charter. The alumni were left PERSONALLY responsible for the mortgage balance. In certain instances, if the charter is in fact pulled, the mortgage company can have a clause in the note that requires the loan to be "called." In other words, whatever remaining balance remains, is due within 30 days.

Think about that from the alumni perspective. They may seem "overlordish" at times, but really, they have literally put their lives on the line for the future of your chapter. It's not something the alumni will take lightly, neither should you.

Case in point - an administrator at a local Moose Lodge here in Colorado guaranteed the lodge building. While the lodge didn't close, there was a lot of funds mismanagement, and as a result, the bank foreclosed on his house. He lost everything, and can't get a new house for another year or so as a result. Family of five from a 4 bed 3 bath house to a 2 bed one bath apartment.

[madmax]

They don't have to rent to you. What are you going to do if they decide to rent to someone else?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
However, good news is is that they cannot pull their money out due to the mortgage. They are required to sign a document that guarantees the house for every 4 or 5 years. They just resigned it during the summer. So they cannot pull their money without finding a replacement guarantor. But its not like we are going to do something horrible or anything anways. I just want to know if this is legal what they are doing or not?

On another note, if there is no organization that protects greeks from living arrangments like this or creates standard guidelines for rules and regulations of greek houses, there sure as hell should be!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ThetaxiUW]

Although the problem has for the most part solved itself, I'm not quite sure I understand your question:

They don't have to rent to you. What are you going to do if they decide to rent to someone else?

Someone else? The house is owned by our alumni. They will rent to our guys only. They wouldn't keep the house if they can't keep it dry. They don't want to risk their houses on renting to a different organization. They have already done that with AKL's and they trashed the house when they left. Like tried to chip our crest off the chimney and break down our ritual doors that are in the basement. Not to mention had a fire on the floor in the living room before they left. What is that? So yeah they don't really want to do that again. They would sell the house before doing that. hope that helps.