Toast Song

[emb021]

Originally posted by lurker
So changing the Toast Song again did not happen at the 2004 National Convention. What are everyones feelings on this? Had it made it out of committee, the delegates from my chapter would have voted to change it (we're a predominantly female chapter, and we already sing "true to alpha phi omega" as opposed to "men of alpha phi omega." Do you forsee this ever changing?

We also sing "brothers clasp the hands of SISTERS" as opposed to brothers. It's odd for all of the girls in our chapter to refer to ourselves as brothers. What's everyones thoughts on this?

ashley

Uh, the item did come out of committee (or aleast it was brought up on the floor). They apparently discussed it for a couple of hours and defeated it.

The issue with the Toast Song is that many people are being turned off on APO because of it. I'm all for tradition, but there are times when traditions need to change or go away (ex: hazing, etc). I hear stories of us loosing whole interest groups because of it, loosing potential pledges and the like. Now, part of that I would attribute to poor education on the part of APO people (ie not explaining about our Toast Song, not explaining about our use of the term 'Brother' etc). But actives need to be mindful of the affects of these issues. And I don't think they are. I heard comments by (I think) past National President "Pinky" Hirsch that he fealt the song was overdue to be changed, and it was in hopes that it would that lead him to attend this years NatConv.

Personally I felt that changing it to "True to" was not as radical a change as others proposed last time and one I felt should have gone thru.

I don't know if our use of the term "Brother" came up. Again, if potential pledges have the matter explained to them (I've done so on-line here, based on what I've told potentials, and most seem to like it. feel free to use it), most understand and except it, except for the occasional 'militant' type that hates it. But then, I'm a member of another co-ed org that ALSO calls all members Brothers (tho not the extent we do).

Just my 2 cents.

[xtc]

first of all, greetings.

now, as for the toast song, i think that it should stay as is. i also feel like whoever challenges the toast song has the right to do so. whether or not i will sing it other than the way it was originally written is another question.

i too feel like some traditions need to die, but those sentiments are mostly aimed at bad and morally defunct traditions, not rich traditions that are simply outdated and and inapplicable due to a change in demographics. of course that happens to some traditions, but isnt that what makes them worth a damn in the first place? isnt that what its about? remembering and observing the simple and humble existence from which we have come? being able to sing the same song that H. Roe Bartle sang and sharing the same grip that Frank Reed Horton gave to other brothers in our past and being able to connect with the past?

anyways, as far as it turning off a perspective member. there are lots of things that turn off perspective members, i dont think that we should change those things. there are lots of men that are turned off on the frat because we are co-ed, does that mean being co-ed is an outdated tradition?!

i also feel that there is too much emphasis being placed on quantity as opposed to quality in regards to membership. why would we place so much time in effort in trying to make the frat more appealing to non-members vs. making our current membership comfortable and proud to be a part of it? we are already "the largest fraternity in the world" but what difference does it make when no one knows who we are? what about the majority of the membership that is gonna have the rug pulled from under them if the song is changed? what do you expect them to do? i can gaurantee that some will not want membership in the frat to be a family tradition. it sounds to me like members will be lost either way, i would rather cater to those who are already here, working hard as he!! for the frat.

as always, i appreciate the dialogue and respect everybody's opinion.

x

[AChiOGirl9]

As a member of the Rituals and Traditions Reference Committe at the 2004 National Convention, there are a few things about this issue i would like to say (since we spend an ENTIRE day on it!)

First off, it DID make it out of our committee, we recommended the change, just wanted to clear that up (it was discussed for 2 hours, voted on, etc).

Everyone always seems to focus on the gender and tradition aspects of the Toast song, so i won't go into what everyone already knows.

**People need to stop thinking about this issue on a CHAPTER level and see how these words are effecting APO as a WHOLE.**

Alpha Phi Omega is a fraternity but also a Business. We raise money, spend money, hire and fire people just like a business does. We are considered a not-for-profit organization which means there is business activity that goes on. So who cares and what does this have to do with the Toast Song?

Alot, actually.

~Marketing is important in a business. We market that we are the largest national co-ed service fraternity. But this seems a little fishy to some when they hear our song. Businesses refuse to work with us because of the Toast Song, therefore we cannot raise funds to help our organization as a whole. (And while you may say- well how are they going to hear our song.... trust me, they do!)
~We had a prominent member of the APO Endowment fund that resigned because of the song alone. There was a conflict of interest on the behalf of her government job and this organization. Let's change the song, so we don't lose MORE impt people like this.
~There are places in this country that WILL NOT allow our organization to open a chapter because of this. It doesn't matter how much you explain that this reference is not an elitist statement- it DOESN'T MATTER.
~~If we are losing money because of this song, why not change it to cover our butts and give APO the chance to raise more money.).

And while some say, well if you change "men of" to "true to" then what is next, brothers, fraternity, etc. This is not true. While there are members that are upset about all of these usages, the MAIN conversery is over the term MEN alone. (I would like to refer you to another site that explains this a little better...http://customink.com/cink/r.jsp?E=bw...n.edu&F=trueto )

[Senusret I]

I didn't pledge a business.

[AChiOGirl9]

No, you didn't pledge a business but if you took away the business aspect of APO, you wouldn't have the fraternity that you did pledge.

[33girl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AChiOGirl9

Originally posted by AChiOGirl9 ~We had a prominent member of the APO Endowment fund that resigned because of the song alone. There was a conflict of interest on the behalf of her government job and this organization. Let's change the song, so we don't lose MORE impt people like this.

Her loss, not ours.

Originally posted by AChiOGirl9
~There are places in this country that WILL NOT allow our organization to open a chapter because of this. It doesn't matter how much you explain that this reference is not an elitist statement- it DOESN'T MATTER.

Again, their loss, most definitely not ours.

Originally posted by AChiOGirl9
~~If we are losing money because of this song, why not change it to cover our butts and give APO the chance to raise more money.).

If the only way we can keep this fraternity financially afloat is by catering to all the PC police and making a choice that the majority of the active membership doesn't even support, we have MUCH bigger problems than the toast song.

This is a brotherhood, not a club. If anything disturbs me about this toast song business it's that we may lose BROTHERS, not MONEY....but I guess that's just me.

[emb021]

Originally posted by 33girl

This is a brotherhood, not a club. If anything disturbs me about this toast song business it's that we may lose BROTHERS, not MONEY....but I guess that's just me.

Uh, but we have lost Brothers (and potential Brothers) because of it. I've been told that we've lost entire IG groups and potential pledges over it. For all we know there may be alumni out there who don't associate with us because they feel it should change.

Also, realize that money issues can affect us in many ways.

[33girl]

Originally posted by emb021
Uh, but we have lost Brothers (and potential Brothers) because of it. I've been told that we've lost entire IG groups and potential pledges over it. For all we know there may be alumni out there who don't associate with us because they feel it should change.

That's what I said. It makes me sad if we've lost brothers & potentials because of what they could gain from the fraternity in their life and vice versa. The poster I was quoting seemed solely concerned about the $$$ factor.

I realize that fraternities and sororities have a business aspect, but there is a way to take that into account and talk about it without being crass.

[AChiOGirl9]

I just want to say that I am not focused soley on the $$ aspect of the Toast Song, (otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned us losing potential new chapters) but that many people dont REALIZE that we are losing $$ too because of it.

Just wanted to shed light on something that many people may not realize

[emb021]

Originally posted by 33girl
That's what I said. It makes me sad if we've lost brothers & potentials because of what they could gain from the fraternity in their life and vice versa. The poster I was quoting seemed solely concerned about the $$$ factor.

I realize that fraternities and sororities have a business aspect, but there is a way to take that into account and talk about it without being crass.

I don't think the original poster was concerned solely with the money factor, just trying to be clear the very serious impact this has on APO. Its OUR lose when a Brother is forced to leave their position because of outside factors, not theirs. I think too many actives don't keep this in mind.

Same thing with the issue of NSW/NSSD reporting. Too many actives (and some staffers) look at it negatively in terms of the impact on their chapter of having to report this (despite the fact that if things are working, its very easy and quick to report on-line). They don't undestand that when APO tries to work with other organizations, proudly stating we are a service organization, we are asked for 'how many hours' has our org done. (compare this with the BSA who is able to report hundreds of millions of service hours due to the reporting with various recent programs!) And we don't have an answer! Without some kind of data its difficult to setup partnerships with other orgs. This is why NSW/NSSD reporting is so important. As well as Brothers earning the Presidental Volunteer Service Award. Again, Chapters (and actives) need to take a broader view of APO beyond their chapter and the impact on the organization as a whole.

[emb021]

Originally posted by xtc
first of all, greetings.

now, as for the toast song, i think that it should stay as is. i also feel like whoever challenges the toast song has the right to do so. whether or not i will sing it other than the way it was originally written is another question.

i too feel like some traditions need to die, but those sentiments are mostly aimed at bad and morally defunct traditions, not rich traditions that are simply outdated and and inapplicable due to a change in demographics. of course that happens to some traditions, but isnt that what makes them worth a damn in the first place? isnt that what its about? remembering and observing the simple and humble existence from which we have come? being able to sing the same song that H. Roe Bartle sang and sharing the same grip that Frank Reed Horton gave to other brothers in our past and being able to connect with the past?

x

Uh, realize that we AREN'T singing the same song that H. Roe Bartle sang. Back then, it only had one verse. The second one came out in the 60s.

Also, don't be too sure that we use the same grip that FRH. I've had some long time alum inform me at Nationals that our current grip is NOT our original one. That it was originally based on the then current boy scout handshake. (but this is something I plan on researching more)

[CasanovaAPQ]

This fourm is amazing to me. to sit here and say we should change a toast song because we are losing "money" is ridiculous. people decide not to seek membership or leave the membership for several reasons. If someone does not want to be a memebr because of a toast song that they should seek membership somehwere else. Lets not forget our founding and why we were founded. let not forget frank reed hortons dream. we are co-ed now and yes some may argue that if he was around when we went co-ed he would od had a problem with that but all we can so is speculate. To me when you go as far as to change a reference to men that we should just change from fraternity to society. from the arguments presented on this forum why call APO a fraternity? Whats the point we are not a fraternity. we are a society really. co-ed chapter, women being called brother this is backward when you think about it and that alone can turn someone off. if you had a problem with the toast song then why did you pledge? Why are we called a fraternity when every aspect of a fraternity is being wiped out? What type of fraternity is mostly female? and what about brotherhood? why is APO trying to redefine the meaning of fraternity by changing all reference to the meaning. im fine with us beong co-ed and im fine with people wanting to improve us but we can not and should not try to cater to people by changing our tradtions. from last i heard APO is not having that much of a membership problem because of the toast song. Were having membership problem because most people dont understand the org. with forum like this its making us look bad. you dont see any other org arguin over changing there toast song. its something that is secrte in there org and they leave it the way it is. to me its not even a copyrighterd song so ifyou have an issue with it at your chapter then DONT SING IT. Your pledged a fraternity, not a society or a sorority. if you wanted to be a sister you should of pledged a sorority. I am a MAN of alpha phi omega. and changing it to true to doesnt make sense when you sing the song. Come on people let table this discussion just like they did at convention and move on to some other important talks.

[xtc]

Originally posted by emb021
Uh, realize that we AREN'T singing the same song that H. Roe Bartle sang. Back then, it only had one verse. The second one came out in the 60s.

Also, don't be too sure that we use the same grip that FRH. I've had some long time alum inform me at Nationals that our current grip is NOT our original one. That it was originally based on the then current boy scout handshake. (but this is something I plan on researching more)

uh, yeah. i do realize that we arent actually singing the same version of the toast song being that another verse was added. been knowing that for quite some time, and as everyone who has read this thread would have noticed where young casanovaAPQ pointed it out in the first place. i dont know about your reference to the grip. i really would prefer that you research that. the reference wasnt meant to state the actual factuals, just to make the connection about why tradition is important by linking important people to important traditions, and show why so many people take stock in it, thats all.

peace in the middle east,

x

[Quala67]

Our grip/handclasp is NOT the same as it was originally. I know many alums from the 60's/70's (particularly from the Baltimore Area Alumni Association) who use the "old" grip, and I showed them the "modern" grip when I've visited with them at events.

[sweete81]

Originally posted by CasanovaAPQ
This fourm is amazing to me. to sit here and say we should change a toast song because we are losing "money" is ridiculous. people decide not to seek membership or leave the membership for several reasons. If someone does not want to be a memebr because of a toast song that they should seek membership somehwere else. Lets not forget our founding and why we were founded. let not forget frank reed hortons dream. we are co-ed now and yes some may argue that if he was around when we went co-ed he would od had a problem with that but all we can so is speculate. To me when you go as far as to change a reference to men that we should just change from fraternity to society. from the arguments presented on this forum why call APO a fraternity? Whats the point we are not a fraternity. we are a society really. co-ed chapter, women being called brother this is backward when you think about it and that alone can turn someone off. if you had a problem with the toast song then why did you pledge? Why are we called a fraternity when every aspect of a fraternity is being wiped out? What type of fraternity is mostly female? and what about brotherhood? why is APO trying to redefine the meaning of fraternity by changing all reference to the meaning. im fine with us beong co-ed and im fine with people wanting to improve us but we can not and should not try to cater to people by changing our tradtions. from last i heard APO is not having that much of a membership problem because of the toast song. Were having membership problem because most people dont understand the org. with forum like this its making us look bad. you dont see any other org arguin over changing there toast song. its something that is secrte in there org and they leave it the way it is. to me its not even a copyrighterd song so ifyou have an issue with it at your chapter then DONT SING IT. Your pledged a fraternity, not a society or a sorority. if you wanted to be a sister you should of pledged a sorority. I am a MAN of alpha phi omega. and changing it to true to doesnt make sense when you sing the song. Come on people let table this discussion just like they did at convention and move on to some other important talks.

Whew, I am glad that I didn't have to write this response! But I agree with EVERYTHING IN THIS REPLY! THIS SHOULDN'T be DISCUSSED IN A PUBLIC FORUM! But I will say this, It almost saddens me to see APO do so much to accomodate potentials but do relatively nothing to accomodate current brothers as a whole. It seems that we are more about quantity versus quality! What is being done to encourage membership past your neo year or past undergrad or to increase male or minority membership? Relatively nothing! (There are some chapters that are so concerned about quantity that current actives do not participate because they do not feel that sense of brotherhood. Address those problems, why are brothers not as active as they should be or chapters becoming too large.) Instead we are focused on a song and we are ready to change something that is near and dear to CURRENT BROTHERS to appease some POTENTIALS!!! SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS!!! Finally, if someone is willing to choose not to join because of a song, is that the type of brother you would want in an organization, ours in particular? I am pretty sure that there is something about every greek-lettered org that its members does not like, but then again, no group is perfect. You take the good with the bad! If it one is that miserable, simply do not take the oath!

Yes, APO IS A BUSINESS, BUT GUESS WHO FINANCES IT, Fraternity MEMBERS not POTENTIAL Members! The frat needs to be more concerned about membership retention and pleasing the members instead of accomodating to some aspirants.