the life and times of gay fraternity brothers

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by saetex
Well its not a pevalent theme in our chapter or any of my friend's chapters here or at different schools. Just because a bunch of fruity Betas want to pledge a bunch of homos doesn't mean that other fraternities should be bunched in the same group. Also, I don't know any guys who talk about banging girls that are not heterosexual. I think shinerbock is in the same situation that I am in.

Furthermore, I am young and in a top fraternity and I really don't give a flying f*uck what you have to say about it. However, The fact that I don't condone some fag being given a bid on issues ranging from moral to practical doesn't make me stereotypical

No one said anything about a theme. Unless it is an organization whose purpose is geared toward sexuality, (hetero or homo)sexuality shouldn't be a theme in any of our organizations. Best believe that some of the men you call brothers aren't as heterosexual as you assume them to be.

You are stereotypical because you appear to be the posterboy for the (heterosexual male and hegemonic) "good ol boy" network that many fraternities are based upon. And you make no apologies for that.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by BigCityStripper
Is that you starang? Or are you also incapable of putting multiple quotes into one post?

Don't you have a pole to hump?

Besides, I hate multiple quote posts.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by saetex
Well its not a pevalent theme in our chapter or any of my friend's chapters here or at different schools. Just because a bunch of fruity Betas want to pledge a bunch of homos doesn't mean that other fraternities should be bunched in the same group. Also, I don't know any guys who talk about banging girls that are not heterosexual. I think shinerbock is in the same situation that I am in.

Furthermore, I am young and in a top fraternity and I really don't give a flying f*uck what you have to say about it. However, The fact that I don't condone some fag being given a bid on issues ranging from moral to practical doesn't make me stereotypical

No... just a shockingly large moron

1 - if you think that everone who talks about "banging girls" is straight... well then, that says alot about either your judging of people based soley on the image they present, or the fact that you are pretty darn gulible.

2 - the general close-minded arrogance and stupidity you present by falling back on your "i'm in a top fraternity" crap ~ who the f*ck cares? and how the hell is that a defense for being a bigotted jackass?

[saetex]

Originally posted by RACooper
No... just a shockingly large moron

1 - if you think that everone who talks about "banging girls" is straight... well then, that says alot about either your judging of people based soley on the image they present, or the fact that you are pretty darn gulible.

2 - the general close-minded arrogance and stupidity you present by falling back on your "i'm in a top fraternity" crap ~ who the f*ck cares? and how the hell is that a defense for being a bigotted jackass?

congratulations on READING the post. I said the people that I KNOW that think like that are in no way gay...I didnt say EVERYONE....try again sport.

I was also not falling back on anthing, I was referring to a comment that was made about stereotypical "frat guys". For the love of God, don't start the racist, bigottry bullshit. There is noone in our chapter that wants to give a gay man a bid into our chapter. Being a fag is immoral, unpractical, and it goes against Christian values, something that SAE upholds.

If you want to criticize me for upholding my religious beliefs and call me a bigotted jackass.....go right ahead dipshit.

[saetex]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
No one said anything about a theme. Unless it is an organization whose purpose is geared toward sexuality, (hetero or homo)sexuality shouldn't be a theme in any of our organizations. Best believe that some of the men you call brothers aren't as heterosexual as you assume them to be.

You are stereotypical because you appear to be the posterboy for the (heterosexual male and hegemonic) "good ol boy" network that many fraternities are based upon. And you make no apologies for that.

I understand your views and agree with most, however I can assure you that my brothers are as straight as it comes. At no point has one of my brothers, older, younger, whatever ever given me that notion. I don't assume.....I know.

[shinerbock]

I must agree. In spite of your conspiracy theory that there must be gays in every fraternity, I disagree. Thankfully, any who would have such intentions (I strongly suspect there are none), have not been open about it. In my opinion, and feel free to call me an a-hole or whatever, a fraternity is a group of college men with similar ideals. Not only do gay people not share my ideals, I honestly don't consider them capable of becoming fraternity men. A man in my opinion is someone who is of high character, who upholds his personal values and that of his family, country, and religion. I have yet to meet a homosexual who meets said specifications. I know, I'm a jerk and ignorant. Or perhaps, I'm just not politically correct.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by saetex
congratulations on READING the post. I said the people that I KNOW that think like that are in no way gay...I didnt say EVERYONE....try again sport.

Apparently you didn't get my point - the fact that there are "closeted" homosexuals that'll act like the stereotypical frat-boy and pick-up girls openly... but privately it's a completely different story.

I was also not falling back on anthing, I was referring to a comment that was made about stereotypical "frat guys". For the love of God, don't start the racist, bigottry bullshit. There is noone in our chapter that wants to give a gay man a bid into our chapter. Being a fag is immoral, unpractical, and it goes against Christian values, something that SAE upholds.

If you want to criticize me for upholding my religious beliefs and call me a bigotted jackass.....go right ahead dipshit.

Well your the one that loves to toss around terms like "fag" or "nigger"... so please excuse me if that doesn't strike me as both the langauge of a bigot, as well as a might un-Christian.

Oh as for homosexuality going against Christian values which you (and SAE) so dearly uphold... kinda strikes me as a little hypocritical with all your talk of banging girls... nevermind the fact that the Bible only condemns homosexual relations as immoral, much like the same way it can be said to condemn your support for hazing or promiscuity...

Finally getting to the point of your falling back on things in an effort to defend yourself - I don't fault you for having strong religious convivtions, I fault you for using your religious convinvtions to justify your bigotry or hate.


PS> Oh I'm sure SAE holds intra-Fraternal respect or honor highly... so please don't betray that by slamming other GLOs here on GC - it's both unseemly for you as a "True Gentleman" and for your Fraternity's letter to be associated with.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by shinerbock
I must agree. In spite of your conspiracy theory that there must be gays in every fraternity, I disagree. Thankfully, any who would have such intentions (I strongly suspect there are none), have not been open about it. In my opinion, and feel free to call me an a-hole or whatever, a fraternity is a group of college men with similar ideals. Not only do gay people not share my ideals, I honestly don't consider them capable of becoming fraternity men. A man in my opinion is someone who is of high character, who upholds his personal values and that of his family, country, and religion. I have yet to meet a homosexual who meets said specifications. I know, I'm a jerk and ignorant. Or perhaps, I'm just not politically correct.

Nope... jerk and ignorant...

[shinerbock]

Well just as a reference for where some may be coming from....
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13

[shinerbock]

Clever response, I like how you backed it up. Ignorance implies lack of knowledge, which I would love to see you test. Jerk perhaps, but my comments are not in spite, but nearly a result of personal logic and beliefs.

[tld221]

Originally posted by Coramoor
Another issue that having an openly gay brother in your fraternity comes with hazing.

Whether your chapter hazes or not, when freshman rush they rush with the pre-conceived notion that they are going to be hazed. No matter how little or how much your chapter's reputation is for hazing, guys do expect it because of the stereotypes that fraternities have.

Now, if I was rushing a fraternity with an openly gay brother, my first thought is going to be...what if the gay brother tries to haze me in that way.

Again, before some idiot starts yelling about how wrong I am-I am simply saying how many freshman are going to view the situation.

The end effect is that it is going to cripple your recruitment. Maybe on your campus the top frats/sororities do have openly gay memebers and then again maybe we have different standards as to what qualifies a chapter being the best.

that says a lot about your character if you think, or if you perceive your PNMs will think like this.

do you honestly believe that every gay man has an attraction to everyone with a penis?

i think if you know from the beginning that you are unwilling to accept gays/minorities or whoever into your organization, you should have the balls to say "hey, we really dont want "X" types in our org. seriously, screw all these anti-discrimination laws and being PC.

only in a perfect world...

[saetex]

Originally posted by RACooper


Apparently you didn't get my point - the fact that there are "closeted" homosexuals that'll act like the stereotypical frat-boy and pick-up girls openly... but privately it's a completely different story.


Well your the one that loves to toss around terms like "fag" or "nigger"... so please excuse me if that doesn't strike me as both the langauge of a bigot, as well as a might un-Christian.

Oh as for homosexuality going against Christian values which you (and SAE) so dearly uphold... kinda strikes me as a little hypocritical with all your talk of banging girls... nevermind the fact that the Bible only condemns homosexual relations as immoral, much like the same way it can be said to condemn your support for hazing or promiscuity...

Finally getting to the point of your falling back on things in an effort to defend yourself - I don't fault you for having strong religious convivtions, I fault you for using your religious convinvtions to justify your bigotry or hate.


PS> Oh I'm sure SAE holds intra-Fraternal respect or honor highly... so please don't betray that by slamming other GLOs here on GC - it's both unseemly for you as a "True Gentleman" and for your Fraternity's letter to be associated with. [/B]

1.) You have got to be kidding me with the closet homosexuals. God, what is your deal? They are not going to be in any top tier chapter in the South. Its not going to happen, whether you think so or not. Closet or not, they are going to be noticeable.

2.)Who the hell are you to question my Christianity? Frankly, calling someone a name does not make theam a racist or a bigot. What if someone were to tell a black joke....does that make them a f*cking racist???? NO...Why is that so hard for you to understand.

3.) Having sex with a girl and having some fun with a pledge does not make me a hypocrite, just because I do not condone homosexuality based on christian values. How are they even on the same level? Are you serious? So I guess if I hit someone, but then criticized someone for them committing murder....i'd be a hypocrite in that both are sins? Furthermore, I don't remember hazing being in the Bible.

4.) I am not a bigot, nor do I HATE anyone. I said a couple words....I didn't lynch them or try to reinstate Jim Crow or kill or beatup someone becasue they were gay. Calm the fu*k down.

5.) Thanks for being the 233287239 peson to use the TG as some way to push your arguments. Come back to me when you are an SAE and you know what you are talking about.

[lifesaver]

Wow, where to start. Its gotten real fratty.net up in here lately.

To be 21 an an expert in everything. Must be hard. Academically, no one will take you seriously when you use such blanket statements like "everyone." Even if its everyone you think you know, you dont really know everyone that well. Time will show you that people you think you know, you dont. All you know is yourself. Then once you get real close to graduation, you are gonna realize you dont even know yourself that well. It happens to everyone.

Fine, you dont have any gays in your top teir house. Fine, whatever. Just dont be suprised if in 15 years at homecoming former chapter president Jim shows up with his partner. I've seen it happen to everyones org. (on the fraternity side of things). Believe what you want about your particular org. But there is nothing inherent about it that is like gay bug spray and keeps homosexuals away. We all have gay people in our orgs. Get to a couple of your national conferences and you'll see what I am talking about. A big 'ol chunk of the real involved alums bat for the other team. Sure, its the 300 lb gorilla no one talks about, but its true. I've talked to them from several orgs (including yours). It dosent take a genius to figure it out, either. Older, no wife/kids, the time to get involved. They do it because the org has become their family. Dosent have anything to do with wanting to hook up with brothers. Sexuality is much more than the act of fucking. But thats a lot deeper than I imagine the conversation will go here in this thread. I somehow doubt the intellegence, patience, tolerance exists in here right now. I'm not gonna change your minds and that's fine. I just want you all to think about some things. If you think I am full of shit, just look at the next conference or ask your consultant the next time he comes for a visit. The older you get and the farther you move away from the emotion of the issue and realize it's not an attack on your chapter or your way of life, you'll see I'm right on this. Dosent have to be today. Dosent have to be this year. Come back in 10 years or whenever you're ready. You'll see I am right. (I'm still waiting on the V's to show back up with the indictments they swore they'd have by Nov. 2001.) I've been involved in greek life long enough now to know some of these things.

But on some of the specifics mentioned here, I gotta make a few comments. I know a couple of gay guys who talk about girls on a regular basis, and in a way where you couldnt tell they were gay. Some do it for cover at work. Some do it becuase it is a part of what our society considers it takes to be 'a guy' and other s do it because its how we often relate to each other as guys. Hell, my buddy Will is as queer as they get. (We call him Three-dollar Bill, lol) Straight acting, but likes dudes. He loves titty bars. Not necessarily for the turn-on of the ladies, but cause they are fun. Point of that is that as an undergrad, you tend to see the world as black and white, and when you get out into the world, it rarely is. Its usually a lot of gray.

Also, again with the blanket statements. I am a chapter advisor for a top teir chapter at a school in the south. The chapter has two undergrads who identify as gay. They also used to date. When they broke up, the world didnt end and the chapter didnt lose it's charter. I'm not gonna lie, the other brothers dont throw them out there as the first guys you see during rush, and I didnt expect they'd actually stay on through their new member period, but they did. Their brothers accept them for who they are. It's an interesting dynamic actually. The 'ground rules' they have mutually established are that the gay kids want to be treated like regular brothers and the rest of the chapter says OK. I roll up to a chapter meeting and they are messing with the gay kids. I try to speak to the guys after about it and they let me know they are treating them how they would if they were straight; by razzing them and giving them shit. Kyle hooks up with big girls, he gets grief for it. Mark is short, he gets grief for that. Cole likes guys, he gets grief for that. Point I am trying to make here is that it does happen, to top tier houses, in the south. I've seen it happen at simularily ranked chapters at universities all over Texas. Maybe not as undegrads, but it is something that each chapter and org has as members. If your chapter is all "down with the fags' then the gay brothers you have are sure as hell gonna wait till they graduate (this is where the term, gay at graduation comes from) to self identify or self announce.

I am also not trying to tell you or anyone that you have to take a gay rushee. If ya dont want a kid, just because he is gay, that's ya'lls right to make that determination. I dont know if the chapter I advise would make the same choices in the future that they did in the past. I am not going to force them to accept a guy just based on his orientation. As an advisor, I dont get involved in the specifics of bid extentions on individual members. Not my place. I'd hope they wouldnt turn a kid away who had a lot to offer cause he played on the other team. But if they did, another group would probably sign him and then they'd later wish they signed him. When I was an undergrad there was this kid we only thought was gay cause he dressed all goofy. We didnt even talk to him at orientation. He went ATO and they made him put on khakis and a button down, get a haircut. Next thing ya know he is a leader, seeing all these girls *AND* bringing his hot sister around the chapter. He was straight all along. Taught me not to judge a book. But if you think signing a gay kid would hurt your chapter then dont sign him. But if the kid lives on sportscenter, is a blue chip intramural player and you could never tell, (and he never did) would you still feel the same way? You might say yes now, but how much of that is pride? Truth is that none of us really know till we are in that situation. Again, I am just trying to get you to see that 1) the world isnt always as you think it is and 2) the world isnt always black and white. If you think it is, I'll be happy to refer you to a vendor of mine named Cami. For two years, she dated a guy named Paul who was the Sigma Chi chapter president up at A&M in the 90's. He still plays baseball with his alumni brothers during homecoming weeknd. Except now it's not Cami at his side. Its his husband, Greg.


BTW, can I have my sig back?

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

Originally posted by lifesaver
Wow, where to start. Its gotten real fratty.net up in here lately.

To be 21 an an expert in everything. Must be hard. Academically, no one will take you seriously when you use such blanket statements like "everyone." Even if its everyone you think you know, you dont really know everyone that well. Time will show you that people you think you know, you dont. All you know is yourself. Then once you get real close to graduation, you are gonna realize you dont even know yourself that well.

Post of the year nominee right here.

[saetex]

Originally posted by lifesaver
Wow, where to start. Its gotten real fratty.net up in here lately.

To be 21 an an expert in everything. Must be hard. Academically, no one will take you seriously when you use such blanket statements like "everyone." Even if its everyone you think you know, you dont really know everyone that well. Time will show you that people you think you know, you dont. All you know is yourself. Then once you get real close to graduation, you are gonna realize you dont even know yourself that well. It happens to everyone.

Fine, you dont have any gays in your top teir house. Fine, whatever. Just dont be suprised if in 15 years at homecoming former chapter president Jim shows up with his partner. I've seen it happen to everyones org. (on the fraternity side of things). Believe what you want about your particular org. But there is nothing inherent about it that is like gay bug spray and keeps homosexuals away. We all have gay people in our orgs. Get to a couple of your national conferences and you'll see what I am talking about. A big 'ol chunk of the real involved alums bat for the other team. Sure, its the 300 lb gorilla no one talks about, but its true. I've talked to them from several orgs (including yours). It dosent take a genius to figure it out, either. Older, no wife/kids, the time to get involved. They do it because the org has become their family. Dosent have anything to do with wanting to hook up with brothers. Sexuality is much more than the act of fucking. But thats a lot deeper than I imagine the conversation will go here in this thread. I somehow doubt the intellegence, patience, tolerance exists in here right now. I'm not gonna change your minds and that's fine. I just want you all to think about some things. If you think I am full of shit, just look at the next conference or ask your consultant the next time he comes for a visit. The older you get and the farther you move away from the emotion of the issue and realize it's not an attack on your chapter or your way of life, you'll see I'm right on this. Dosent have to be today. Dosent have to be this year. Come back in 10 years or whenever you're ready. You'll see I am right. (I'm still waiting on the V's to show back up with the indictments they swore they'd have by Nov. 2001.) I've been involved in greek life long enough now to know some of these things.

But on some of the specifics mentioned here, I gotta make a few comments. I know a couple of gay guys who talk about girls on a regular basis, and in a way where you couldnt tell they were gay. Some do it for cover at work. Some do it becuase it is a part of what our society considers it takes to be 'a guy' and other s do it because its how we often relate to each other as guys. Hell, my buddy Will is as queer as they get. (We call him Three-dollar Bill, lol) Straight acting, but likes dudes. He loves titty bars. Not necessarily for the turn-on of the ladies, but cause they are fun. Point of that is that as an undergrad, you tend to see the world as black and white, and when you get out into the world, it rarely is. Its usually a lot of gray.

Also, again with the blanket statements. I am a chapter advisor for a top teir chapter at a school in the south. The chapter has two undergrads who identify as gay. They also used to date. When they broke up, the world didnt end and the chapter didnt lose it's charter. I'm not gonna lie, the other brothers dont throw them out there as the first guys you see during rush, and I didnt expect they'd actually stay on through their new member period, but they did. Their brothers accept them for who they are. It's an interesting dynamic actually. The 'ground rules' they have mutually established are that the gay kids want to be treated like regular brothers and the rest of the chapter says OK. I roll up to a chapter meeting and they are messing with the gay kids. I try to speak to the guys after about it and they let me know they are treating them how they would if they were straight; by razzing them and giving them shit. Kyle hooks up with big girls, he gets grief for it. Mark is short, he gets grief for that. Cole likes guys, he gets grief for that. Point I am trying to make here is that it does happen, to top tier houses, in the south. I've seen it happen at simularily ranked chapters at universities all over Texas. Maybe not as undegrads, but it is something that each chapter and org has as members. If your chapter is all "down with the fags' then the gay brothers you have are sure as hell gonna wait till they graduate (this is where the term, gay at graduation comes from) to self identify or self announce.

I am also not trying to tell you or anyone that you have to take a gay rushee. If ya dont want a kid, just because he is gay, that's ya'lls right to make that determination. I dont know if the chapter I advise would make the same choices in the future that they did in the past. I am not going to force them to accept a guy just based on his orientation. As an advisor, I dont get involved in the specifics of bid extentions on individual members. Not my place. I'd hope they wouldnt turn a kid away who had a lot to offer cause he played on the other team. But if they did, another group would probably sign him and then they'd later wish they signed him. When I was an undergrad there was this kid we only thought was gay cause he dressed all goofy. We didnt even talk to him at orientation. He went ATO and they made him put on khakis and a button down, get a haircut. Next thing ya know he is a leader, seeing all these girls *AND* bringing his hot sister around the chapter. He was straight all along. Taught me not to judge a book. But if you think signing a gay kid would hurt your chapter then dont sign him. But if the kid lives on sportscenter, is a blue chip intramural player and you could never tell, (and he never did) would you still feel the same way? You might say yes now, but how much of that is pride? Truth is that none of us really know till we are in that situation. Again, I am just trying to get you to see that 1) the world isnt always as you think it is and 2) the world isnt always black and white. If you think it is, I'll be happy to refer you to a vendor of mine named Cami. For two years, she dated a guy named Paul who was the Sigma Chi chapter president up at A&M in the 90's. He still plays baseball with his alumni brothers during homecoming weeknd. Except now it's not Cami at his side. Its his husband, Greg.


BTW, can I have my sig back?

Great post, serisously, I wish I could go back and rephrase some of the things that I said. I am not going to make any excuses, Ill just shut up. I would like to make it a point to, atleast tell you that I am in no way a gay basher or anything of the sort. I have a friend or two, like you, that are queerer than a three dollar bill, and I accept that......but that does not involve fraternities and the situation that arises with that subject where I am at UT.