ITT We Discuss Theology

[thetygerlily]

aephi alum- I'm curious, did you select Judaism after you joined AEPhi, or before?

ETA: I know quite a few people who were raised in some form of Christianity and moved to Judaism anywhere from late teens to adulthood. They are some of the happiest religious people I know

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I agree with MysticCat here.

Seeking out a religion or set of beliefs that resonates with you is not "shopping". You shop for school supplies. You shop for shoes. You don't shop for a religion.

The religion in which I was raised hasn't sat well with me since my early teenage years. As soon as I was out from under my repressive father's roof, I began exploring what was out there and what was in my soul. After YEARS of research, experience, and soul-searching, I chose to become Jewish - and once I'd made that choice, it was another year and a half before I officially became Jewish. I lost friends and nearly lost my parents over that choice. Calling that "religion shopping" belittles my entire experience. It also belittles the experience of everyone who's ever searched his or her soul and chosen a faith - whether s/he converted to a different faith, chose not to be part of any organized religion, or ultimately chose to embrace his/her childhood faith.

I'll be clear in saying I'm speaking purely about my own experience. And in fact were I to go out and "shop" for a religion over the next few months and just pick something, I'd think that would be more insulting to your experiences in its way. However, my finding "shopping" repelling, when that is not at all what you did, shouldn't affect or insult you at all.

Having not, to this point, seen anything that resonates with me, particularly since I've never been a fan of the concept of Truth, how could I do anything but 'shop.' Hence why I'm not, as 33girl suggested, heading off to 'experience' anything. It wouldn't be honest.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

My church did leave. We're now LCMC, which is Lutheran Churches in Missions for Christ. So far, the only thing that's REALLY changed at our church (besides removing the references to ELCA in our Constitution and etc) is us now spending our own Benevolence dollars our way, instead of sending them to ELCA to spend for us. We've been able to do a LOT more local philanthropy then we were ever able to before.

Our newest project that we're supporting is this guy who started a cooking school in Charlotte. The school is for poor/unemployed people who need a skill-set. While learning to cook, the students prepare 400+ meals a day for the needy. Teaching a man to fish AND feeding the poor in one shot - that's the best charity idea I've heard of in awhile.

We do pretty well locally, we're rural so it is different than your situation, but a lot of the people in the congregation like the ELCA use of the money and our involvement in global issues and giving to LWF. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of ELCA benefits so I'd not be in favor of leaving the ELCA. What was told to me, and I'm sure I could look it up, is that the amount of people opposed to/taking issue with ordination of same sex partnered pastors was the same percentage as when the ordination of women came up. If we survived that, I think we can survive this.

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think it's "shopping" or a horrible thing any more than it would be if you said to your parents "I realize this is your hometown and I love it, but I hate it and it makes me miserable. I'm going to live someplace where I'm not miserable." Have you actually gone to other houses of worship or just read about them? I don't think you can feel it just reading about it. (This is starting to sound like rush advice. Har.)



Part of the problem I think I'm having is the ELCA church nearest me has a female minister and I just do not feel comfy with a female as the primary minister. I completely support their right to be one, I just don't want to be in their congregation. And then I think...that's kinda messed up...it should be the message that gets me there, not the person it's coming through. So I kind of feel like an a-hole going downtown when there is an ELCA congregation fairly nearby. (Keep in mind that the church I was raised in was literally 3 houses away from me. I guess I just have it set in my mind that church = community.)

As far as another denomination, I really feel I need something with "pomp" and that leaves Catholic and Episcopalian. I'm not going full out Catholic and as far as Episcopalian, the congregations around here left the main church over the gay ordination issue.

Shopping for a congregation happens too, I know I've done it. When I first went away to college I chose the less monied more out of the way church because they used the green book and didn't have guitar church camp sing-a-longs. I'm not interested or comfortable with what the downtown church offered, so I went to the one on the outskirts of town, which amusingly enough was the Scandinavian congregation. I don't think it is wrong for you to chose a church based on the pastor, since you're not against her ordination, just like I couldn't handle amps on the altar and clapping and singing with a tambourine. Don't feel like an a-hole because you want to find a place where you fit in and feel comfortable worshiping and sharing faith.

I so hear you on the pomp thing, I like my service less contemporary, and more singing older songs, reflecting in silence, and keeping it under an hour and a half. I need vestments and paraments so I know where I am in the Church year and I like the ritual of it all, including the standing, sitting, and kneeling. If it wasn't for vestments I'd have no idea if it was a Presbyterian or Lutheran week at the church in Delta, so I'd peep Pastor Bear's ensemble and grab the right books if I was late.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yes and no. Ultimately, yes it is about faith or Faith or what have you. But from within the Christian framework, God created us with these brains to think, logic and reason as well. If the only way to believe is to deny those attributes (and I acknowledge that it's not for everyone, plenty of people, myself included for a time, think critically about their faith yet keep it) then I'm stuck not believing. If the only way into 'Heaven' is for me to do that, well I probably didn't want to go anyway.


How is this liberal?

If the infinite and omnipotent is not understandable by our finite minds, why try? Particularly if it cannot even convince our finite minds that it exists?

Shitty science. Theory in science does not mean "Guess" it means accurate predictive descriptions about the world, ones backed up by repeated, consistent, empirical evidence. If you don't believe in evolution, I hope you don't get vaccines. Wouldn't want to support the idea that germs evolve! (Oh and the theory of gravity, don't believe in that either, you can fly!) Pretty silly, yes? That's because you can't brush it off as a *~*~THEORY~*~* when that is not what the word means.

The God of the Bible.. which God? The one who visits the sins of the father onto his great grandchildren? The one who slew the first born children, including innocents, of Egypt? The God who destroyed four cities because Lot couldn't find enough good people in them? The God who endorses slavery? The God who said, kill the Midianites and after you've captured the women and children, kill the male children and any woman who has slept with a man, and keep the rest for yourselves.*

Because if you're going to talk about the God of the Bible, you should be specific. And depending on how you understand and interpret the words written there, makes a lot of difference in how you worship him.

Same question, really. Which Jesus of the Bible. Which gospel? Whose story do you trust and how is it that you are assured that your reading is the correct one and someone else's is a fantasy? This is pure frodobaggins material. And however much you tried to turn this into "Faith" we swerve right back into Theology.


Why the assumption that atheism comes from somewhere yet religion does not? Also, I don't think you're really kidding. As much as I joked that I'm indecisive, I'm not. You can't force faith. I'm not thinking about flipping a coin tomorrow for believing in God or not. Agnostic means "without knowledge." There is no claim to Truth involved, nor wishy-washiness.

*I totally cherry-picked incidents intentionally. Partially by what I recalled off the top of my head, and partially because they're all pretty shitty things. There are apologist counters to all of them, but that's why "God of the Bible" is a poor way to describe your faith.

See now this is how you get a conversation started. Challenge people's faith instead of their Theology and you get these reactions.

Oh also I was kidding.I respect agnostics being that agnosticism is the most misunderstood school of thought. People always assume agnostics are fence sitters

This coming from a personal experience.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

See now this is how you get a conversation started. Challenge people's faith instead of their Theology and you get these reactions.

Oh also I was kidding.I respect agnostics being that agnosticism is the most misunderstood school of thought. People always assume agnostics are fence sitters

This coming from a personal experience.

The conversation started before you decided to troll it.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The conversation started before you decided to troll it.

Sure it did. It bored so good...I mean moved along so well.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

See now this is how you get a conversation started. Challenge people's faith instead of their Theology and you get these reactions.

Which was exactly the point of my earlier comment.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Sure it did. It bored so good...I mean moved along so well.

LOL.

For the record, some agnostics are fence sitters. As with any other "school of thought" (if you wish to call it that) there is diversity within that includes fence sitters and people who blow whichever way the wind blows.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And honestly, I've always supported this concept myself. Along with a healthy dose of "Good done in the name of 'evil' is still given to the good. Evil done in the name of Good (insert Deity here) is still evil." I thank Narnia for the early introduction of that concept.

I suppose a good way to put it is that I'm not sure there is a dot there at all now. And that although I see how different religions serve mankind; I don't know whether there's truly that greater purpose above and beyond it all, or whether what started as stories to explain good, evil, love, war, rain, death, birth and so on took on a life of their own.

Yes and no. Ultimately, yes it is about faith or Faith or what have you. But from within the Christian framework, God created us with these brains to think, logic and reason as well. If the only way to believe is to deny those attributes (and I acknowledge that it's not for everyone, plenty of people, myself included for a time, think critically about their faith yet keep it) then I'm stuck not believing. If the only way into 'Heaven' is for me to do that, well I probably didn't want to go anyway.

If the infinite and omnipotent is not understandable by our finite minds, why try? Particularly if it cannot even convince our finite minds that it exists?

And, I will be the first to admit that my faith and belief system has nothing to do with logic, thinking, or reason. It has to do with a feeling... a feeling that I've felt often enough, while focused on God in prayer and a feeling that is kind of indescribable but it's like a complete and total peace and warmth that fills me up, particularly during times of total despair or grief. I have chosen to interpret that as a higher power of some sort. I'm also unsure how I'd ever deal with the loss of loved ones without believing in the afterlife. For example, I need to believe that I will see my mom again in the afterlife. It's a coping strategy. If I'm wrong, well, it still will have served a purpose in getting me through years of missing her.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by thetygerlily

aephi alum- I'm curious, did you select Judaism after you joined AEPhi, or before?

ETA: I know quite a few people who were raised in some form of Christianity and moved to Judaism anywhere from late teens to adulthood. They are some of the happiest religious people I know

Neither had anything to do with the other. I'd be Jewish today whether I were an AEPhi or not.

[IrishLake]

Well here's a question I have, coming form a Catholic's standpoint.

Several times recently, and less frequently in my younger years, some non-Catholic Christians have essentially told me that Catholics are not real Christians. A lot of other Catholics I know have said they've encountered the same thing. Why do some other Christians think that? I remember being a freshman in college, and a girl I became friends with down the hall grew up in the Baptist faith, and she would come to my room and I would do her eyebrows for her, and she'd always ask me stuff like "Why do you pray to saints? Why do they matter? Why do ya'll love Mary so much? Why do you go to confession?" And I'd answer her to the best of my ability (13 years of Catholic school prepped me for these visits!), but at the end of our conversations, she'd still say "Well, ya'll still aren't "real" Christians." What the hell does that MEAN?!?!

The most memorable one in recent memory was I went to a local Christian bookstore by my house this past spring, hoping to find a gift for my God-daughter's First Holy Communion. I wandered around for a while, not seeing what I was looking for, so I asked the girls at the checkout counter. Never in my life have I felt like such dirt! The one girls response, complete with sneer on her face, was "Well, you're just gonna have to go to a 'Catholic' bookstore for stuff like that, we don't recognize all that stuff, so we don't carry anything to support it." I'm standing there thinking... wtf? All I could say was "Ok, thanks." and I walked out.

Oh, and I found a perfect childs book of saints at a Catholic bookstore.

[PiKA2001]

Hmmmm.....I always thought that Catholics were the "original" Christians.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Hmmmm.....I always thought that Catholics were the "original" Christians.

Well that can be argued lol. A lot of Non Catholics think that Catholics aren't Christians because of a misunderstanding of the RC theology. The devotion to Saints, The focus on the Virgin, the highly hierarchical and traditional system of government etc..

[IrishLake]

Me and Mary, we're tight. I pray a Hail Mary every day. But we also say a Lords prayer and the Nicene Creed at every mass. I always want to say the Nicene Creed when people tell me Catholics don't beleive the same thing "real Christians" do.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Oh I know. I was raised a Roman Catholic, and still hold to some of the ideals, like devotion towards Mary. I also think the Bishop of Rome is first among equals.