Tom Delay: People Are Unemployed Because They Want To Be

[RU OX Alum]

Can I come be your paralegal? Or at least copy proofreader?

[TitaniumGene]

It's hard for me to tell if the conversation has strayed from my original post.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by TitaniumGene

It's hard for me to tell if the conversation has strayed from my original post.

Answer: yes.

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Actually, he is. I know him personally. I don't have to stick up for him, he can do that himself. But this argument isn't over what the topic covers, this is a pissing contest because you two disagree with each other.

Relax. It's the internet. But you made me laugh, so it's okay.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Otherwise, solo attorneys can do pretty well.

Sometimes. I know some who aren't.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Choice nonetheless.

The premise I'm arguing against is that no one is culpable for their own demise in this economy.

Then you're arguing against a premise no one has advanced (we've all agreed that some people are quite cuplable and some people are somewhat culpable) by arguing the other extreme: that everyone is cuplable for their own demise in this economy, that unemployment simply means they're not trying hard enough. The premise I'm arguing against is that it is always that black-and-white, as cut-and-dry or simple as you make it out to be, that everyone could just find a job if they tried harder or made the right choices. Complicated problems just don't have simple answers like that. To quote H.L. Mencken, "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

Are some people's situations worse than others? No doubt. But I've seen damn near homeless folks scrape together the cash they needed for representation while still paying the bills. If a multi-time felon, semi-literate individual can make it, so can these apparently educated folks. They don't get my sympathy because no matter how bad they think they have it, I've seen people climb out of deeper holes.

From your persective it's a deeper hole. Any chance your perspective is incomplete?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

From your persective it's a deeper hole. Any chance your perspective is incomplete?

Want to trade places with a multiple-time felon with no home who has an addiction it'd be really easy to return to?

I sure as hell don't.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I know lawyers who office out of their apartments. And generally to join a federal Bar Association or for State dues, it's only around $200 or so, which just about anyone can scrounge up or put on a credit card.

As far as getting on that list, if it's through the Federal Public Defender's office, I doubt that costs anything. If it's a fairly uniform system (and I'm guessing that's the case), then you just get in contact with the public defender, sit second-chair on something that goes to trial and you're ready to go. Doesn't pay great, but it pays.

Something I know a few lawyers do is just hang out in the courtroom at the criminal arraignment dockets and get appointed to represent (for a fee, of course) whatever unrepresented criminal defendants happen to be there that day. In fact, there are a few folks around here who I'm pretty sure do only that and don't actually even have offices.

And once you're a member of the federal Bar, get some good bankruptcy software and that can be a lucrative and easy field to make money in. As a lawyer, you're never unemployed because if you do a good job networking (note: networking means not networking with other lawyers, church, rotary, etc., are much more reliable ways to pick up clients).

Also, if you can get a simple website online, once you get it indexed well with the search engines, you'll be able to bring in quite a few cases that way. In this profession, getting a job with some big firm is highly overrated. Starting solo, you'll make a lot less money in the short run, but in the long run, in terms of stress and even money, you're more than likely going to come out ahead.

great post.

I especially agree with the part in bold. That has been my mantra for the last year or so while my classmates are ignoring decent opportunities in their desperate attempts to get big firm jobs. While I disagree with some of your assessments, I do know that in looking at my classmates, many of them are not working to make good choices. They have their eyes set on a big firm job and won't even CONSIDER going solo after graduation. They wont even consider a Legal Aid job as a starting point just to pay bills.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Want to trade places with a multiple-time felon with no home who has an addiction it'd be really easy to return to?

I sure as hell don't.

I don't either, never suggested I would.

But then, they're plenty of people I wouldn't want to trade places with. You know a lot about this particular former felon and that gives you an insight into how deep his hole was and how easy it would be to fall back into it. I get that. But I also get that neither you nor I know as much about plenty of other people. That's why I'm hesitant to assume that his hole is "deeper" than the holes other people have that I know nothing about.

[ADqtPiMel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I know lawyers who office out of their apartments. And generally to join a federal Bar Association or for State dues, it's only around $200 or so, which just about anyone can scrounge up or put on a credit card.

As far as getting on that list, if it's through the Federal Public Defender's office, I doubt that costs anything. If it's a fairly uniform system (and I'm guessing that's the case), then you just get in contact with the public defender, sit second-chair on something that goes to trial and you're ready to go. Doesn't pay great, but it pays.

Something I know a few lawyers do is just hang out in the courtroom at the criminal arraignment dockets and get appointed to represent (for a fee, of course) whatever unrepresented criminal defendants happen to be there that day. In fact, there are a few folks around here who I'm pretty sure do only that and don't actually even have offices.

And once you're a member of the federal Bar, get some good bankruptcy software and that can be a lucrative and easy field to make money in. As a lawyer, you're never unemployed because if you do a good job networking (note: networking means not networking with other lawyers, church, rotary, etc., are much more reliable ways to pick up clients).

Also, if you can get a simple website online, once you get it indexed well with the search engines, you'll be able to bring in quite a few cases that way. In this profession, getting a job with some big firm is highly overrated. Starting solo, you'll make a lot less money in the short run, but in the long run, in terms of stress and even money, you're more than likely going to come out ahead.

Thank you for the advice. We're not comfortable enough with giving up the retail paycheck (and it is a decent retail job, not one he's likely to find again) to take the chance on solo practice. He's at the court twice a week, sometimes more, and sees more lawyers waiting around to represent the unrepresented than there are cases. It's a risky move at this point for us, and we don't have much of a safety net if it fails.

And big firm jobs aren't even on his radar -- the only person we know out here who managed to go the traditional big firm route is a high school friend who graduated top 10% from Stanford, and even she had her offer deferred. He's looking at the government, smaller boutique firms, and clerkships with judges.

I don't have any interest in belaboring this point -- just saying that people directed toward DC as the Land of Jobs are going to be disappointed.

[summer_gphib]

Brevard County, Florida (aka the Space Coast) now has an unemployment rate of 12.7 percent, with another hit coming with the end of the space shuttle program that will affect another 23000 jobs. I highly doubt that those people want to be unemployed. :-P

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ADqtPiMel

Thank you for the advice. We're not comfortable enough with giving up the retail paycheck (and it is a decent retail job, not one he's likely to find again) to take the chance on solo practice. He's at the court twice a week, sometimes more, and sees more lawyers waiting around to represent the unrepresented than there are cases. It's a risky move at this point for us, and we don't have much of a safety net if it fails.

And big firm jobs aren't even on his radar -- the only person we know out here who managed to go the traditional big firm route is a high school friend who graduated top 10% from Stanford, and even she had her offer deferred. He's looking at the government, smaller boutique firms, and clerkships with judges.

I don't have any interest in belaboring this point -- just saying that people directed toward DC as the Land of Jobs are going to be disappointed.

If that's what he's doing, he can probably start doing bankruptcy. Good software only costs a few hundred bucks (and isn't 100% necessary, but saves work). Do some chapter 7s and 13s. Fortunately for y'all (and unfortunately for others), there's as much bankruptcy right now as there was back in '05 when the new bankruptcy laws limiting chapter 7s were taking effect. Nice thing about bankruptcy is that you'll always have a lot of notice ahead of time as to when hearings are and there are generally no emergencies.

He might associate with similarly situated classmates so they can cover eachothers' hearings when work schedules conflict.

[Lasonja]

Originally Posted by Clarence

-------------------


My dear Watson it has, for some reason seems as though people have tooking a turn on your post. Well let me help you bring it back. My thing is this, right now American is laying off so many people, its not even funny. Now when you ask are people not working cause they don't want to. I have to say NO and YES.

Some of americans are not working cause they can't get a dam job at least not one that is going to pay there mortgages for there house that they have had for the last 3-5 years. They wont find a job that will take care of there 4 kids plus one on the way. So when it comes to americans that are not working it might be because they got LAID OFF. You ever heard of Laid Off yah thats a messed up thing to have to go through. So many people loosing everything that they worked hard for. Now a Bum or a lazy ass, is one that doesn't want to work, in american your going to have people that don't want to work. Those are the people that don't care about making a dollar. They have no responsibilities no concerns about life so they just don't care. Sorry to say but yes its people in america that don't want to work. We call them LAZY. But and i say But lets not dog out the ones that do want to work but cant find a job

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Where I'm from, it's no gamble. You'll do better than retail wages, period. Could be different over there. I dunno. Otherwise, substitute teaching would be much smarter than retail -- it's something to do when you're not in court or with clients, but you're flexible enough to still be able to practice law.

Again, it really depends on where you are. In NYC, substitute teaching requires a lot of requirements that even the typical college grad doesn't have. Even after you fill those requirements (which isn't instant), it's no guarantee that you'll ever be called in--there are a lot of subs and each principal has their list of people. If you're not certified, there's a cap of how many days you can work. I had no idea that it was much harder to sub here; where I grew up, a lot of people (especially military wives who couldn't get into the school system) subbed regularly and it wasn't that difficult. I'm not sure if DC is the same, but I'd imagine it's closer to NYC in that regard than OKC.

Sometimes you just have to go for the stable paycheck. I doubt it's a permanent thing for Mel's husband anyway--he did really well in law school and the DC market is just saturated right now.

Virtually every attorney I know in NYC, DC, Boston, or Philly, other than some of my clients who are partners, has been laid off or had hours reduced. It will probably get better and most with enough experience are working for themselves right now, but it's not pretty.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Sometimes you just have to go for the stable paycheck.

This.

Are you going to LOVE it? Probably not. But it keeps your bills paid while you're looking for something better.