High school hazing on The Early Show

[starang21]

Originally posted by momoftwo
I'm afraid you're probably right. The director of Youth Services, who deals with many of the troubled teens in Glenview and Northbrook took some heat because she expressed the same opinion. The task force is too large to be effective.

Interestingly enough, the local news this week also included the results of a survey on the stress levels experienced by kids in our high schools. Included in those results were statistics that our kids report that a large of them don't have any rules and that their parents weren't consistent about discipline. No wonder we need a task force!

My daughter is a camp counselor. One of her kids has been picking fights with the other kids all summer long. She's been taking the corrective actions she's allowed to and is telling his babysitter and parents, but his behavior doesn't improve. This week, one of the campers retaliated, and the instigator came home with scratches on his neck and chest. His father (big, huge, scary man) came into camp and screamed at my daughter because his child got hurt.

While there's lots of good about where we live, there are also lots of kids who have no limits and whose parents look in the wrong direction when things go wrong. Those dynamics were definitely in play in the hazing situation. Wonder what the task force is going to have to say about that?!

that's what happens when parents don't teach their kids consequences. forget that time out bullsh*t, need to bring back the belt.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by starang21
that's what happens when parents don't teach their kids consequences. forget that time out bullsh*t, need to bring back the belt.

Easy to say, but way too simple, I think. While not taking sides on the corporal punishment argument, I just don't believe that there is any easily identifiable solution.

[starang21]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Easy to say, but way too simple, I think. While not taking sides on the corporal punishment argument, I just don't believe that there is any easily identifiable solution.

yeah i know....but i'm a firm believer in corporal punishment personally.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by starang21
that's what happens when parents don't teach their kids consequences. forget that time out bullsh*t, need to bring back the belt.

Great! They already have a problem with violence, so let's teach them that hitting people is okay! That'll solve all the problems.

[starang21]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Great! They already have a problem with violence, so let's teach them that hitting people is okay! That'll solve all the problems.

actually, speaking from experience....it teaches consequences.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by starang21
actually, speaking from experience....it teaches consequences.

And speaking from experience, it never stopped me from anything. This should probably be a seperate thread, but I don't think spanking/belt lashing/whatever taught me anything. I'm also worried about the precedent that it could set for abuse - the only other person I know who got spanked ended up being abused.

I think a problem in suburban communities is that kids have way too much free time - for the most part, they don't have jobs and they have cars, so they don't have a sense of responsibility because things are handed to them. I think a part time job and not getting every new shirt at Abercrombie might help.

[bgsarah]

I can't believe I just spent hours reading this entire thread. ugh. I'm not even going to comment about any of the hazing as it's already all been said, but as for the "bring back the belt" sentiment, I really disagree.
While it may teach some kids consequences, it teaches others that (as above person stated) hitting people is ok, and still others it teaches ways to get around punishments.
my mother used the belt on me for a good 13 odd years or so, until she realized that during the time she was going to get the belt, I was stuffing toilet paper in my pants to lessen the blow-- then faking that I was hurt.


All I'm really saying is that if parents are involved enough without being forceful, there shouldn't be a need to hit your children.
Especially in the case of the hazing girls. I wonder if their parents hit them?

[starang21]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
And speaking from experience, it never stopped me from anything. This should probably be a seperate thread, but I don't think spanking/belt lashing/whatever taught me anything. I'm also worried about the precedent that it could set for abuse - the only other person I know who got spanked ended up being abused.

I think a problem in suburban communities is that kids have way too much free time - for the most part, they don't have jobs and they have cars, so they don't have a sense of responsibility because things are handed to them. I think a part time job and not getting every new shirt at Abercrombie might help.

that's all fine and dandy, all of the folks i know who got spanked as kids turned out better than a lot of those kids who got the "time out." most of those other kids turned out to be pretty spoiled. theres a line between abuse and discipline. it's up to the parent to take it back. forget that curbing creativity line....it ain't creative if it's not constructive. if you don't think so, fine...don't do it. i'm a firm believer in it, and best believe if my kids act a fool in the grocery aisle.....i'm not the parent to be "come on little johnny, if you behave you'll get a cookie when we get home." best believe that my kids won't be rewarded for good behavior....it's expected. these kids don't have a sense of responsibility because every single time they mess up...mommy and daddy bail their asses out. as far as the girls who struck....their mentality was like "it wasn't as if we killed them." right....sounds like someone who was disciplined a whole lot at home.

[DeltaSigStan]

Originally posted by starang21
that's all fine and dandy, all of the folks i know who got spanked as kids turned out better than a lot of those kids who got the "time out." most of those other kids turned out to be pretty spoiled. theres a line between abuse and discipline. it's up to the parent to take it back. forget that curbing creativity line....it ain't creative if it's not constructive. if you don't think so, fine...don't do it. i'm a firm believer in it, and best believe if my kids act a fool in the grocery aisle.....i'm not the parent to be "come on little johnny, if you behave you'll get a cookie when we get home." best believe that my kids won't be rewarded for good behavior....it's expected. these kids don't have a sense of responsibility because every single time they mess up...mommy and daddy bail their asses out. as far as the girls who struck....their mentality was like "it wasn't as if we killed them." right....sounds like someone who was disciplined a whole lot at home.

I distinctly remember asking my mom why I didn't get an allowance.

Her respose? Well:

"You know that roof above your head, the food you eat that I cook and those clothes you wear to school every day? Welcome to your allowance."

I have a question: I was doing the family laundry, washing the dishes, vaccuming and so forth when I was 8, but, you all did all that at your age, right?

[starang21]

Originally posted by DeltaSigStan

I have a question: I was doing the family laundry, washing the dishes, vaccuming and so forth when I was 8, but, you all did all that at your age, right?

not the family laundry, moms didn't want me acting a fool with it. was doing vacuuming and washing dishes and taking care of my little brother and mowing the lawn. i also got the "i brought you into this world, i can take you out of it." and i think one time i told my dad i was going to run away, he opened up the door for me.

[momoftwo]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin

I think a problem in suburban communities is that kids have way too much free time - for the most part, they don't have jobs and they have cars, so they don't have a sense of responsibility because things are handed to them. I think a part time job and not getting every new shirt at Abercrombie might help.

I know that my kids, and most of their friends, have far less free time than I had as a high school student. Student activities are big here--it is not unusual for my kids to be at school between 10 and 12 hours on school days. The years my daughter was on the swim team and in marching band I rarely saw her during the fall.

The advice we hear is keep 'em busy, keep 'em out of trouble. It seems to have worked for us. Reading through some of the news stories it seems like many of the GBN seniors were involved--lots of LAX players--I can't remember what else.

I think where the parents went wrong was not making them accept consequences for their actions (e.g., the girl who was expelled in April, wiggled out of it and then get involved in Powder Puff) and tolerating illegal behavior (underage drinking). If parents think the rules don't count, what will the kids think?

I personally know many kids who have a lot but at the same time they are hardworking, responsible and caring.

[Munchkin03]

In Chit Chat, there's a link to an article about kids in Canada having these huge parties where houses are getting trashed. One theory behind this is that the kids are so over-programmed by their parents that when they actually have free time, they have no idea what to do. Granted, it's been a few years since I was a HS senior, but that's what the scene was like with me--I'm sure it's remained the same, or gotten far worse. Many adolescents have no idea of how to manage their own time, instead depending on parents and a bevy of activities to essentially "babysit" their children. It happens younger and younger--my niece's friends (just finished first grade) have schedules that make my head spin.

Plus, it always seemed like it was the super involved kids--the athletes, class officers, and club members--who got in the most trouble relating to weekend parties. I really wouldn't be surprised if all of the GBN kids had great resumes.

My parents were authoritative, yet they didn't resort to discipline by fear. Is this why I turned out the way I did? Maybe. I think we'll see both sides of the coin with these girls--parents who were strict, and parents who were lax. It's all about the healthy balance.

[DeltAlum]

Munchkin,

That's an interesting thought. I have a slightly different spin on it, although the outcome may be the same.

In our experience, the high schools themselves have so many activities (especially the senior year), that the kids, who aren't always the best at communication and prior planning, go into, "Meeting, Assembly, Awards Dinner, Rehearsal, etc." overload.

Our youngest just graduated last year, and he was exactly the kid we're talking about -- Student body officer and in a billion activities. (does that sound exagerated?)

He's a great kid, National Merit, etc., but for a while he just sort of went where he was pointed.

Thanks for the post.

[Munchkin03]

I know it's not exaggerated. I was one of those kids. I directed or had an office in almost every single thing I did and was in all IB classes (think AP but harder, with more classes). But, during my senior year, my parents realized I was having too many "Maalox Moments" and forced me to cut back on everything except academic stuff and two activities. It made me a lot happier, saved a lot on gas mileage, and prepared me for college, when I had lots of free time on my hands.

All of my friends were in the same position, and it didn't stop any of them from getting in trouble--even the kids who pulled 1600s and had all sorts of national honors. So, "keep 'em busy" isn't a surefire method to keep 'em outta trouble.

[33girl]

There's a fine line between keep em busy, keep em out of trouble, and overloading the kids so much (I'm talking about the parents and the school) that they don't have time to be kids. There was an article in Talk magazine (R.I.P) where the 14 year olds were talking about how they were so overprogrammed and pressured during the week, they went crazy with drinking and sex on the weekends. If you give a child an adult schedule, it's not surprising that they will "relax" with what are considered adult activities.

My parents never pushed me, mainly because one of their friends' kids had a nervous breakdown from being involved in so many things. I think they were very wary of saying "well why don't you do more of this or that" because of her experience.

I mean, when I was 16, I could go to the drugstore and browse around the makeup and magazines for an hour, daydreaming. Do kids these days even know what daydreaming is?