The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

Thanks for all the dialogue....I want to make it clear that on this whole issue I am dead in the middle....

Spare us. There are few things more annoying than uninformed fence sitting devil's advocates who claim to just be sparking debate.

[badgeguy]

Im not trying to spark a debate....Im trying to gain information form various sources to be able to form a better opinion of the situation.......Im trying to do what the leaders of our country are asking.......talking about this issue.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

Im not trying to spark a debate....Im trying to gain information form various sources to be able to form a better opinion of the situation.......Im trying to do what the leaders of our country are asking.......talking about this issue.

Some of your posts seem genuinely inquisitive. Some of your posts seem like your personal opinion which is wonderful if you admit to having an opinion. Some of your posts seem like devil's advocate. For instance, do not chase after media comparisons of O.J. Simpson and George Zimmerman and type a GC post beginning with "I wonder..." if you could just as easily research what really occurred in 1995. When we have to tell you what really happened in 1995, it makes it seem as though you are clueless, disagree with certain GC posts which requires an opinion on your part, or you are attempting devil's advocate for the sake of debate. If none of these are true then you need to try a different way of gaining information and talking about this issue.

[PiKA2001]

What does O.J. Simpson have to do with Zimmerman? Anybody that wants to make a correlation between these two cases needs to actually look into the cases and see how different they really are.

[DrPhil]

Rant/

I don't dislike Rush Limbaugh and I sometimes see what he is at least trying to say. With that said....

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/07/22/barack_obama_has_more_in_common_with_george_zimmer man_than_trayvon_martin

(This part has nothing to do with this thread)
I agree, white people around the world and in the U.S.A. should not feel guilty. Guilt is annoying and breeds annoying things like (1) diversity trainings, (2) color blindness, (3) colorblind racism, (4) nonstop apologies, and (5) apologetic demeanor that is actually conducive to racism and discrimination.

DUH, white people around the world are not the only people to have slaves and participate in slave trades. Anyone who has studied history knows that Native groups and groups of the African diaspora, among other groups around the world, owned people because slavery is about using easily targeted humans as cattle. No, white people around the world are not the only people to go to war to abolish slavery to boot. That would be amusing considering white ethnic groups around the world are among the central components of world slavery. It is like whooping someone's ass for centuries, coming to your senses and apologizing, and expecting to be thanked for coming to your senses. The abolition of slavery in the Americas was generally not rooted in the inhumanity and immorality of slavery. For many abolitionists, it was rooted in what can be gained beyond the slave trade. Many of these white people did not hate Black people, they loved money which is the monetary root of slavery around the world. Money is correlated with race, ethnicity, and culture but it is spans beyond race, ethnicity, and culture. Abolish slavery if you can find a better way to make money and to oppress disadvantaged racial, ethnic, cultural, and religious groups.

(This part has something to do with this thread)
No, President Obama is not more similar to Zimmerman than Martin just because he is biracial and "raised in Hawaii by two rich white people and attended a prep school." People tend not to see our resume' or family background when they see us. They tend to see the group identifiers with which they believe we can be easily categorized.

/rant

[DrPhil]

Iota Guy, I was really trying to figure out whose username is GrandDragon. There is nothing about Kevin's posts in this thread that are Klan material.

[badgeguy]

I was watching a little Hannity last night when I got home, and was just curious about something he kept trying to point out.....he kept asking his guests about the list of 61 murders that took place over the weekend in Chicago, and kept asking where were the protests over these?

I am kinda wondering the same....even though the nation right now is so hung up in the Trayvon case, what about all the other murders that are happening? Shouldn't there be some protesting to try and stop the violence in the cities??

[DrPhil]

Badgeguy, then you are just as under-researched, misinformed, and unable to multitask as Hannity.

Wait, wait...don't tell me...despite the "I am kinda wondering the same," this isn't your own opinion. You are just expressing the opinions of others and gaining information to embark on discussions encouraged by leaders of our country.

Blah.

*****

People need to separate their own outrage from how they represent this topic to students:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/you-wont-believe-what-teachers-plan-to-tell-kids-about-trayvon-martin.html

I'm just learning about this. I'm going to dinner this evening. But, more power to those who protested in this manner:
http://wordondastreet.com/spread-the-word-do-not-spend-any-money-on-july-23rd-2013-in-honor-of-trayvon-martin/

Polls Show Wide Racial Gap On Trayvon Martin Case

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

I was watching a little Hannity last night when I got home, and was just curious about something he kept trying to point out.....he kept asking his guests about the list of 61 murders that took place over the weekend in Chicago, and kept asking where were the protests over these?

In other words, he kept trying to change the subject.

What I suspect Hannity understands but would prefer not to address is that people aren't protesting about a murder per se, so questions about protesting other murders are just redirection to give him the upper hand. People are protesting a killing, a jury verdict and a stand-your-ground law that they see as symptomatic and symbolic of inherent problems of inequality and injustice in our legal system.

[badgeguy]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

In other words, he kept trying to change the subject.

What I suspect Hannity understands but would prefer not to address is that people aren't protesting about a murder per se, so questions about protesting other murders are just redirection to give him the upper hand. People are protesting a killing, a jury verdict and a stand-your-ground law that they see as symptomatic and symbolic of inherent problems of inequality and injustice in our legal system.

Ok. Then why are we only seeing protests about FL laws when there are at least 21 other states with the same law? I know that the media seems to be driving alot of this debate because its good for their business...I would think that people who are upset about this law (which according to many was never even used as a defense in this case....) then wouldn't they want all states to change it? An why the call for boycotts to FL....they are not the only state to have had such an issue...just the most recent and upfront....

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

Ok. Then why are we only seeing protests about FL laws when there are at least 21 other states with the same law? I know that the media seems to be driving alot of this debate because its good for their business...I would think that people who are upset about this law (which according to many was never even used as a defense in this case....) then wouldn't they want all states to change it? An why the call for boycotts to FL....they are not the only state to have had such an issue...just the most recent and upfront....

The Florida one is actually far more extreme than the other ones. For example, Pennsylvania requires that the other person is armed, and a hearing is required. Not all laws are made equally; furthermore, were any 16 year olds killed in other states as a result of their "stand your ground" laws?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

Ok. Then why are we only seeing protests about FL laws when there are at least 21 other states with the same law? I know that the media seems to be driving alot of this debate because its good for their business...I would think that people who are upset about this law (which according to many was never even used as a defense in this case....) then wouldn't they want all states to change it?

Aside from what Munchkin said, we're not seeing protests just about Florida. As I said, this case has become a symbol. That's the way these things often go -- out of lots of people or events, one strikes just the right chord at jut the right time and becomes the symbol for all of them. People can debate whether this is the best case to be the symbol or not, but regardless it has taken on that role.

[Kevin]

No, procedurally, he never requested a stand your ground hearing. Not knowing much about Florida law, that could be a lot like our preliminary hearings in Oklahoma. They're a good place to find out what the state plans on doing, but aside from a few cases (I have one right now where I might just win the Preliminary Hearing assuming the judge follows the law), they are almost always won by the state because the burden is low.

Reading the Florida statute, if the Defendant wants a stand your ground hearing, he must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the immunity attaches to their actions.

We can only speculate what happened with the defense and why they chose not to have that hearing. A quick reading of the political tea leaves would reveal that no way would Judge Nelson want to deal with the political fallout of simply dismissing this case and following that, when (not if) the defense lost that hearing, the state would have won what many lay people would consider to be a major victory and it could have given jurors the wrong idea at trial. Some might think that the judge had already heard about the potential self-defense and hadn't bought it. Jurors aren't always going to get into what the difference between beyond a reasonable doubt and preponderance of the evidence is.

[Kevin]

I'm not even sure SYG was the total culprit here. You'd have to research Florida case law to determine what duty to retreat means and how it'd be applied to the facts which were in evidence.

The facts showed that Zimmerman pursued Martin in a non-violent manner. The uncontroverted (but also unproved) testimony of Zimmerman was that Martin assaulted him, got the better of him in a wrestling match and was slamming his head against some concrete.

Assuming that was the case at that point, the jury might have found that he didn't have the ability to safely retreat (or whatever FL law would say) and that the force was justifiable.

Like I've said, it's not the best set of facts to champion the cause of inequality and privilege with.

[Psi U MC Vito]

IIRC, from what I heard, Florida's Stand Your Ground law doesn't have a duty to retreat.