Hazing creates a sense of unity

[shinerbock]

Irregardless of your opinion on the matter, I still believe in the greek hierarchy. Yes, I also realize irregardless isn't a actual word, but it makes me laugh.

[Tom Earp]

Oh Well, that explains it all!

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I still believe in the greek hierarchy.

I believe in purple polka dot lions sometimes. Never seen proof of their existence but I believe they exist...irregardlesslyousnessly.

[Tom Earp]

And

again what is the reason for Your Post? Is it above above and beyond the call of Nada?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

And

again what is the reason for Your Post? Is it above above and beyond the call of Nada?

My reason for my posts are pretty obvious and they are based on the "Southern pride" trend I have noticed in a few threads:

1) There is no Greek hierarchy that places Southern chapters above nonSouthern chapters
2) Southern pledging and hazing practices aren't really different than pledging and hazing practices elsewhere

But as always, Tom, you should ignore me when I'm not posting to you.

[AXiD_ME]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, believe what you will, but there most certainly is. Maybe I don't know enough about other regions (although I'm fairly well traveled), but from what I can tell, in no other region do greek systems hold the clout and prominence that those in the South do. There is much more tradition involved, much more power involved, and often times much more money involved. I'm not putting down other region's greek systems, but the emphasis on greek life in the south is immense, and I really don't think that is refutable. Regarding hazing and pledging, I think there may be a difference, but I'm not sure. In the south, hazing is most commonly for constructive purposes (lineups, putting pledges in difficult situations and requiring them to work together to get out of it), and I don't know what its for everywhere else. I think in there probably is a different aspect of pledging in the South, one that focuses on becoming a gentleman, dressing appropriately...almost a cotillion for students. They may do this other places, but like I said, I don't know.

I've read most of this thread before I put my two cents in and I will qualify my statements by saying I AM from the North, and I AM from a small chapter. I also have only been affliated with my GLO for one year... however I have done alot of research into standards that my GLO sets and those of other organizations, and I have friends in alot of different organizations... have i covered my ass yet enough for everybody on here cuz y'all like to jump down people's throats....

I PERSONALLY believe that the "strength" of some southern schools has alot to do with parents. There seem to be alot more legacies and/or people whose parents were greek in a different organization. These parents most likely went through some crazy hazing and are more likely to counsel their kids that "it'll get better" or "it's worth it" than parents who either never went greek or even never went to college and just don't get greek life period, never mind "getting" hazing.

And furthermore, hazing is NOT a southern issue, let me tell you. I won't use names of organizations local or national, tho it's NOT mine. but hazing happens up here, and everyone knows it. Groups have been derecognized by our university for it. And our once decently sized greek system here has disappeared as anti-hazing laws have appeared and cracked down over the years.

Hazing acc. to FIPG is a huge list of things... and hazing in undergrads minds is another thing. what it boils down to is personal respocibility. Do what you want to do, as long as you are willing to take ANY POTENTIAL concequences. Example: If you know an organization is going to haze the hell out of you and you sign a bid, then you become a dropper and rat everyone out, you're just an idiot. you knew what was coming to you. I'm not saying it's right. But use your brain. and YES i think 18 yr olds have a brain. it may be hormone filled and alcohol addled but hey it's there. use it.

I also think that the north and the (more affluent) south have different cultures, and i respect that. up here we don't have cotillion, junior league, or any of that stuff. And so i think the types of hazing you see in different areas reflect thier different cultures.

sorry i've covered so many points, i've read alot of different posts that i had opinions on today.... and in conclusion i'd like to say, hey, maybe there are activities that are technically considered hazing that you believe have merit. I can definately get behind the fact that some idiots took scavenger hunts too far and ruined them for the rest of us who could use them very safely. but it is what it is. we live in the good old U.S. of A. and one of the prices we pay for our freedoms is that we do live in a very litigious society where we DO have to cover our asses because someone WILL sue you, and we DO have to make strict but broad laws because some asshole somewhere WILL take it too far, ruin it for everyone else, and THEN someone will sue. It sucks, but why argue it, because it is what it is until we change our whole national culture, and that's not a job I want, go for it if you feel up to tackling it. Or be the next Thoreau and be civily disobedient and take the concequences. Unfortunately in greek life, a whole ORGANIZATION can be forced to live our your concequence, and I'm not willing to be in the bullseye of every other person I accidentally screwed over. So, i'll follow a few silly rules, nationally or of my GLO, that I disagree with in order to get the bennefits of other rules that have great merit.

[Tom Earp]

Kuddos and very well put.

North and South, East and West, Chapters are still governed by National Rules and guide lines and I am sure that each GLO expects them to be adhered to.

There is news daily of Chapters who are dechartered by Nationals or removed from schools. There must be a reason for it isnt there?


College Tuition goes up yearly and to pay for Greek Organizations stay the same except for insurance. There is only so much money a student has to pay out for extra activities.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by AXiD_ME

I've read most of this thread before I put my two cents in and I will qualify my statements by saying I AM from the North, and I AM from a small chapter. I also have only been affliated with my GLO for one year... however I have done alot of research into standards that my GLO sets and those of other organizations, and I have friends in alot of different organizations... have i covered my ass yet enough for everybody on here cuz y'all like to jump down people's throats....

I PERSONALLY believe that the "strength" of some southern schools has alot to do with parents. There seem to be alot more legacies and/or people whose parents were greek in a different organization. These parents most likely went through some crazy hazing and are more likely to counsel their kids that "it'll get better" or "it's worth it" than parents who either never went greek or even never went to college and just don't get greek life period, never mind "getting" hazing.

And furthermore, hazing is NOT a southern issue, let me tell you. I won't use names of organizations local or national, tho it's NOT mine. but hazing happens up here, and everyone knows it. Groups have been derecognized by our university for it. And our once decently sized greek system here has disappeared as anti-hazing laws have appeared and cracked down over the years.

Hazing acc. to FIPG is a huge list of things... and hazing in undergrads minds is another thing. what it boils down to is personal respocibility. Do what you want to do, as long as you are willing to take ANY POTENTIAL concequences. Example: If you know an organization is going to haze the hell out of you and you sign a bid, then you become a dropper and rat everyone out, you're just an idiot. you knew what was coming to you. I'm not saying it's right. But use your brain. and YES i think 18 yr olds have a brain. it may be hormone filled and alcohol addled but hey it's there. use it.

I also think that the north and the (more affluent) south have different cultures, and i respect that. up here we don't have cotillion, junior league, or any of that stuff. And so i think the types of hazing you see in different areas reflect thier different cultures.

sorry i've covered so many points, i've read alot of different posts that i had opinions on today.... and in conclusion i'd like to say, hey, maybe there are activities that are technically considered hazing that you believe have merit. I can definately get behind the fact that some idiots took scavenger hunts too far and ruined them for the rest of us who could use them very safely. but it is what it is. we live in the good old U.S. of A. and one of the prices we pay for our freedoms is that we do live in a very litigious society where we DO have to cover our asses because someone WILL sue you, and we DO have to make strict but broad laws because some asshole somewhere WILL take it too far, ruin it for everyone else, and THEN someone will sue. It sucks, but why argue it, because it is what it is until we change our whole national culture, and that's not a job I want, go for it if you feel up to tackling it. Or be the next Thoreau and be civily disobedient and take the concequences. Unfortunately in greek life, a whole ORGANIZATION can be forced to live our your concequence, and I'm not willing to be in the bullseye of every other person I accidentally screwed over. So, i'll follow a few silly rules, nationally or of my GLO, that I disagree with in order to get the bennefits of other rules that have great merit.

Very well said and laid out.
Hazing is all over-at least 3 of the chapters at my school were rather hard core about; and one just about brainwashed the pledges.
We, while in 20/20 hindsight, came close to the egde, did build the groups-both the pledge class and then the whole in a positive way.

Hazing just to do it because it was done to you, your father, et al is wrong.

Hazing has nothing to do with being a Greek. It is sad to say that other groups do it as well as you may have seen in the papers or on-line in the past few weeks.

It is sad to say that it goes on at all. Anywhere, by any group.

And when it happens and ends up get out, it hurts more than that one group.

It hurts all groups.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I believe what I know to be true (versus false and based on biases and self-importance).

I'm from/in the South and also know about other regions. That's why I made the initial post.

It appears that you are biased as well. I am also a strong believer that the South produces a huge majority of the best chapters in the country. When it boils down to wealth, representation, legacy, power, history, etc. I think of Southern chapters......and I have had the pleasure of seeing the Greek life at many schools around the country. I could sit here and comment on many strong chapters, but I won't. I am an SAE, so i'll go with that. It doesn't get any better than Alabama, Georgia, Vandy, Texas etc. etc. When you go to leadership schools up North with a group of brothers from the South and are practically worshiped there......then you know your place.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

It appears that you are biased as well.

Since I'm from and in the South, it seems as though I'd be biased in favor of the "Southern chapter hierarchy."

Instead, I think the belief in such a hierarchy is a crock based on pretention and self-importance. Bias that.

[macallan25]

If thats all you are going to do, then there is no point in debating the issue. You haven't backed up your claims the least bit.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

If thats all you are going to do, then there is no point in debating the issue.

This was never a debate.

Originally Posted by macallan25

You haven't backed up your claims the least bit.

Neither have you. Pretention, classism, and snootiness "do not a hierarchy make."

Rich traditions, history, and good deeds are extremely valuable and can add to one's bias in favor of Southern chapters. Notice I referenced "bias in favor" which is not the same thing as the existence of an actual hierarchy.

[macallan25]

It looked like it was turning into one. Oh well.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

It looked like it was turning into one.

Nope.......

[shinerbock]

Well theres no way to debate this based on fact. You could probably bring up the mansions southern fraternities live in, the common 6-7 figure operating budgets the chapters have, and the amount of people in the chapter. That probably wouldnt be enough for most, as just because you have a lot of guys and nice things and a lot of money isn't enough because up north they have that "true brotherhood" we lack down south. I'm personally ok with that.