What to tell overconfident PNMs

[IndianaSigKap]

I have been on the advisor end of that phone call before. One time the alum was so stunned that she got off the phone very quickly. The other quick one was less than 5 minutes but since it was a grandmother, and it was not grandmother's chapter. She was very nice about it. Two other times, not so much. While I am glad I made the calls and avoided drama later in the process, they are not easy calls.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by 33girl

^You would hope that the mom or whoever would have the smarts to realize that her chapter has not been frozen in amber for the last 25 years, or that the chapter at mom's alma mater and daughter's school have never had anything in common except their letters. IMO it would be more upsetting to have a daughter pledge your org, hate it and drop out.

It would also be nice if mothers recognize that their daughters are different people, with minds of their own, and allow their daughters to make not-my-group decisions without guilt trips or repercussions.

[Titchou]

Yeah, it would also be nice to find a cure for cancer....but neither of these things are happening any time soon....

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DGTess

It would also be nice if mothers recognize that their daughters are different people, with minds of their own, and allow their daughters to make not-my-group decisions without guilt trips or repercussions.

I have a feeling that this will happen more and more as time goes on. These PNMs will become new members who will become sisters and recognize that there are simply too many legacies going through recruitment to take them all on. When they become parents, they may be more sympathetic and understanding of the chapters' position.

There will always be a few exceptions, of course, but I think this will change in the future.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I have a feeling that this will happen more and more as time goes on. These PNMs will become new members who will become sisters and recognize that there are simply too many legacies going through recruitment to take them all on. When they become parents, they may be more sympathetic and understanding of the chapters' position.

There will always be a few exceptions, of course, but I think this will change in the future.

Not in the deep South....

[clemsongirl]

Having been a PNM recently with a legacy connection, although not an advisor, I think the phone call should go away entirely. I find it hypocritical that we tell parents to let their daughters get their own recommendations, not to helicopter, that on the university level information isn't given to parents unless they have a FERPA waiver from the student, etc, but that some sororities and chapters still tell the legacy relative about a recruitment decision that is ultimately not theirs. It should be the PNM's place to break that news however she chooses to do so, and I don't think the chapter needs to be involved in that process. I understand that the legacy relative is still a sister and it might not be easy news to take, but I think the PNM's right to conduct her own recruitment trumps the legacy's right to hear from that chapter.

More personally, the chapter making that call inserts them into what could be a potentially fraught relationship between the PNM and the legacy relative. Just because mom was willing to write a legacy recommendation doesn't mean mom and daughter are necessarily on good terms, and the chapter letting mom know what happened could strain that relationship further. We just don't know.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Not in the deep South....

I think that EVERYWHERE there are alumnae who in their dotage (har) have forgotten the legacy who came through during their time as a collegian who just didn't fit. And that has been going on since there were legacies.

[carnation]

We didn't forget! But those girls were usually waaaay out of the ballpark. Now there are far too many legacies rushing for sororities to take them all.

[FSUZeta]

Knowing sorority sisters who received "the call" about their legacies being released, I can tell you it does not soften the blow. Whether or not the legacy joins another group or remains independent, the wound never completely heals.

And I've got a story for you: I was recruitment advisor for a chapter that received a glowing rec for the sister of a Zeta who was a member of a different chapter. When the legacy showed up on the party list, we got the best rushers prepped to help the PNM have a great experience. Boy were we surprised when the legacy walked in and we discovered that she was a married mother of two in her late 20s! The campus culture is such that she did not fit the standard new member mold, nor did she meet our national membership requirements and she was released. The national policy did not require that anyone call the rec writer, but she called around and I was told by the district officer to give her a call, which I did. Turns out that the PNM was not even a real sister, but rather a dear friend with whom the rec writer had grown up, and they always referred to themselves as sisters! So I got the opportunity to gently educate the woman on our legacy policy, as well as the cultures of the campuses in the state in regards to late 20 aged PNMs.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by clemsongirl

It should be the PNM's place to break that news however she chooses to do so, and I don't think the chapter needs to be involved in that process. I understand that the legacy relative is still a sister and it might not be easy news to take, but I think the PNM's right to conduct her own recruitment trumps the legacy's right to hear from that chapter.

I agree with everything you wrote, clemsongirl. I find the current process even more troubling when the legacy relative finds out before the PNM herself.

[DoctorD]

Originally Posted by clemsongirl

Having been a PNM recently with a legacy connection, although not an advisor, I think the phone call should go away entirely. I find it hypocritical that we tell parents to let their daughters get their own recommendations, not to helicopter, that on the university level information isn't given to parents unless they have a FERPA waiver from the student, etc, but that some sororities and chapters still tell the legacy relative about a recruitment decision that is ultimately not theirs. It should be the PNM's place to break that news however she chooses to do so, and I don't think the chapter needs to be involved in that process. I understand that the legacy relative is still a sister and it might not be easy news to take, but I think the PNM's right to conduct her own recruitment trumps the legacy's right to hear from that chapter.

More personally, the chapter making that call inserts them into what could be a potentially fraught relationship between the PNM and the legacy relative. Just because mom was willing to write a legacy recommendation doesn't mean mom and daughter are necessarily on good terms, and the chapter letting mom know what happened could strain that relationship further. We just don't know.

The phone call has gone away with Alpha Gamma Delta, largely for the reasons you have stated.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by carnation

We didn't forget! But those girls were usually waaaay out of the ballpark. Now there are far too many legacies rushing for sororities to take them all.

I have trouble with this statement in its many forms. Not to single out carnation, but I see it a lot.

I thought I understood RFM.

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

[AZTheta]

Hey DGTess! Pretty sure this has been answered elsewhere on GC & I am searching for it now. "It" being the threads about legacies and math/quota/etc. I could write you a dissertation in response to your questions. However there are others who are more succinct and I'm leaving it in their hands!

[shadokat]

Bad advisor here...because it the chapter I advise wants to cut a legacy, I tell them that the recruitment chair will make the call to mom/grandmom, etc. It forces the women to think long and hard about the legacy because we've all heard the "she just doesn't fit" our chapter.

[clemsongirl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I have trouble with this statement in its many forms. Not to single out carnation, but I see it a lot.

I thought I understood RFM.

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

It's been a few years now, but I think when I was involved in my chapter's recruitment we had around the same number of legacies going through as quota, which hovered in the 60s. But, part of that was an upperclassman quota, which was around 15 because Clemson has a fairly large number of sophomores in recruitment for a couple reasons (and they are very successful). Thus, if more of those legacies were first-year students than upperclassmen, which I think they were but I don't remember for sure, we would have had more than we could take.

Obviously this is one poorly-remembered anecdote, but it's possible. Or, take ADPi's chapter at Brenau University. Quota there is something like 8-it's entirely possible that one of the six sororities there could have more than eight legacies in recruitment, especially sororities with a more liberal definition of legacy.

I agree that in generally it's not likely, and people are probably saying it more to mean "we don't want a whole pledge class of legacies", which is also valid, but a little different.

EDIT: another difference between "too many women rushing to take them all" and "too many legacies" is that legacies are chapter specific. There are a lot more ADPi legacies in Clemson recruitment than say, Sigma Kappa legacies by virtue of the fact that there are many more ADPi chapters in the areas Clemson students come from that are very old. Vice versa in other locations with other sororities. Legacies aren't divvied up at pref night equally. Also, a woman can be a legacy to more than one chapter but only counts as one PNM.