Older men?

[P7A77]

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but when you see people who are /always/ dating well outside of their age-group, the exceptions are few and far between.

I don't buy it that there's only one person for everyone. Because if that's the case, what a coincidence that all these 20-year-old girls (and really, at 20, you're not a woman yet) just /happen/ to find them over and over in these older men. Are they finding their "one true love", or are they projecting issues they have with relationships and with their past into these people?

I may be coming off a little strong, but it angers me to see post after post of people saying that it's not only okay to date older men, but it should be encouraged! More often than not, the older men involved in these situations have issues with control and probably fantasies about even younger girls. Either that or all the people their age just realized they were complete buffoons not worth their time. The younger women involved in these situations are often blinded by how sweet they are (at first), or how much more financially secure they are than the "boys" their age, or whatever else. Plus, there is always a bit of the "looking for daddy" thing.

I'm not saying that relationships with a vast age difference can't work. I'm saying that, in the way our society is, the vast majority of them are misguided and based more on the issues and insecurities the people involved have than on the relationships themselves.

To the person who discounted my example of a 21-year-old dating a 14-year-old as not good because it's "against the law" ... that seems a pretty convenient way to discount a perfect good comparison without having to think about it. It's really the same thing, and the relationships exist for the same reasons.

Again, just think about it for a minute... maybe /you're/ mature enough to handle dating an older man, but what kind of screwed up people do they have to be to even WANT to date younger women? Would YOU date a 14-year-old? I sure hope not. Think about yoru reasons for not wanting to, and apply them for why you shouldn't date someone significantly older, at least not at the age you are now. I guarantee that most of these older men have a pattern of dating younger women, too. Is it just an extreme coincidence that they always happen to find their "soulmates" in this age group? Or are there really much deeper and more disturbing issues at play here? Whenever you have a pattern in your life, the issue /isn't/ everyone else. There's only one constant: YOU. So the women who are always dating older men aren't doing it because they happen to find the qualities they like in older men. They're doing it because they have issues and work them out with this age group. The men who always date younger women are doing it because they have SERIOUS issues about women in general, and can more easily emotionally and physically manipulate the impressionable high school and college girls.

A relationship is a reflection of yourself. What you like about others are reflections of yourself. So, again, it's not that you just happen to find what you want in an older man, it's that your inability to deal with certain issues causes you to /need/ an older man, and all that it represents.

But maybe the problem isn't you. Maybe the problem isn't that all men your age are idiots. Maybe the problem is that you're looking in the wrong places. I've known a lot of people in a lot of different age groups, and I see the same qualities in all these age groups. I know people will take this last line and say that there's a reason why it's okay to date older, and I say, again, that the older men that are good people and well adjusted don't /want/ to date younger women (and not even to the "well, I don't want to, but you're so special!" stage, because the well-adjusted men don't let themselves get to that point). So since the older men you want to date also want to date you, that's big flashing neon sign number one that that's not a good person with whom to be.

But back to the point, all people are not the same, but people who /are/ the same tend to congregate. If you keep going to the same "dating pool" and finding the same sorts of people, don't think that /all/ people of that age group are the same. Think that you need to look somewhere else. Or think that you need to look inside yourself and figure out why you keep picking the same sorts of people.

And I know I'm coming off as a broken record, but I seem to have been misunderstood before, so I just want to make sure. The reason that all men your age that you date aren't good for you is the same reason the older men you date aren't good for you either. It's not the men. It's you. They're both different sides of the same coin. To say that you can't find what you want in your own agegroup is a cop-out. If you can't come to terms with why you keep getting in failed relationships and what it says about yourself, what makes you think you'll just happen to find the perfect guy who's a little bit older? It's not the men. It's you. The patterns are caused by you, and the same aspects of your personality that cause you to pick bad younger men will cause you to pick bad older men, too. You just might not realize it as quickly, and that's where the danger lies.

PS. "your" is a posssessive pronoun; "you're" is a contraction of "you are".

[amycat412]

I don't see anything wrong with a 10 year age difference in adults--but, that said--no matter how mature you are and how immature the 30 year old is, there are still going to be big differences. Your lives are in different places, your life experience is in different places.

My good guy friend who is 35 is dating a 24 year old and though he is attracted to her and likes her all he does is complain about this and complain about that and I have to take HER side and remind him that what he's complaining about is basically that she's 24 and does not have the life experience to relate to him on the level he needs her to.

That said, I am 32 and recently met a 40 year old i was into. But it became pretty clear pretty quickly that he was too old for me--he was of a totally different generation and way too old fashioned for me.

My rule of thumb is--best if you were in high school at the same time--a 3 year gap--you'll be able to relate to the same things. 3 years up or 3 years down is safe.

[veruca76]

I actually agree with you - although it may be hard to swallow. I dated a 25 year old guy when I was 18. I didn't think much of it at the time. However, now I am 25 and if some guy I knew started chasing 18 year olds I'd want to have a good talk with him. You are really in VERY different places in your life from each other at those ages and it's really not good.

[Miami1839]

Amy,

I can understand where your coming from. Yeah, H.S. is the ideal time.

P7A77,

I respect your opinions, but no offense they seem a little extreme and exagerated to me. I think its wrong for a guy or a girl over 18 to be interested in anyone younger than that. Not only is it wrong its illegal. Even though I see where your coming from

Kevin


[This message has been edited by Miami1839 (edited July 30, 2001).]

[P7A77]

Well, at least I'm starting to get some support...

amycat and veruca, thank you for saying what I was trying to say. Your posts were much more succinct and straightforward. amycat's rule of thumb is a pretty good one, and for good reasons. veruca is saying what I was trying to say from the start.

But heck, even when you're older, it can be tough. My mother started dating a man in his 50s when she was in her 40s. It was generally okay. They were in related fields, knew each other professionally, and were generally as well developed. Well, now my mom's in her early 50s and her boyfriend is in his 60s. He's ready to retire. He's completely burned out on his career and wants to move west and play golf all the time. She's burned out on hers (and actually just made a drastic career switch), but my brother just had a child, so she wants to spend the next ten or fifteen years watching her grandson grow up. So even 30 years down the line from what we're talking about here, it creates problems. Granted, they're not the same sort of problems (and not nearly as destructive), but amycat's rule of thumb still applies.

Miami... you say it's "wrong" for someone over 18 to date someone under 18, but /why/ is it wrong? What are your reasons? Saying "just because" or "it's illegal" isn't a reason. If you think about it for a while and go a few reasons deep (ie, think of the reasons for your reasons until you get to the true heart of the issue), I think you'll see that, at least as far as the early 20s are concerned, it's the same thing.

Or to go the other way... most everyone here is saying it's perfectly fine for a 20-year-old to date a 30-year-old. That's ten years! What's wrong with a 20-year-old dating a 14-year-old? That's only six years. On top of that, 14 is a copule of years past puberty for most people, and a lot of people have already started experimenting sexually by then, at least with kissing and flirting. So since age is just an arbitrary number, there should be no problem with a 14-year-old who feels she's way more mature and developed than everyone around her dating that cute 20-year-old college boy. I mean, he's in college! And he's so sweet! He buys her presents, picks her up at her middle school (since she can't drive, anyway), and is more on her level emotionally. It makes sense, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by P7A77 (edited July 30, 2001).]

[AngelPhiSig]

About a woman, not being a woman at 20... technically a girl becomes a woman around age 13ish... which its going down to sometimes around age 8... (some anatomy lessons may help you here)

If youre talking maturity, every one matures differently, but its true that females mature faster than males, which may be why women tend to fall for older men... because the ones their own age are mentally younger...

I mean, I have no problem with ages, I dont mind guys my age, but some girls may not find the beer drinking steriotypical college male to be a mental match... but the tad bit older man, may just be a match.

I understand peoples feelings on the whole 'sugar daddy' idea... dating an older man for money, sex etc is wrong, but if youre in it for the right reasons its fine.


DOUBLE STANDARDS ARE A BITCH... which was my motto for the year...

If a woman dates an older man, he is her sugar daddy, or it is 'morally' wrong...

Yet if a man dates an older woman, he's concidered a god...

Explain to me this?

The statutory rape issues about dating someone under 18 can have some double standard issues too... typically aganst males dating females. But as long as you are not having sex, or doing any sexual acts, it isnt statutory rape... seeing as you are in no way raping the minor. There is the corruption of a minor charge that can come into play though... depending on what some people will view as corruption.... (example, if you are dating a 17 year old, and you are say 20, and you take him/her to a party and they drink, or whatever... there you go...)

I know Im rambling, but people make me angry, and I love to argue...


P7A77, dont go thinking that everyone in the world has to have an alterior motive in a relationship! One of my friends is 20 and she married a 35 year old, yes they are married, and no he is not having fantasies of a young girl...

And are you so down on the 'soulmate' thing because you havent found one? I mean, I dont believe in ONE specific person, I think there are many that a person will fit well with... but how do you know that some 22 year old might not find love with a 35 year old?

My sister's parents are 15 years apart. They have been married for over 25 years... And then theres mine, who are less than a year apart, and they argue all the time...

Love dosent know age, color or religion, you cant help who you fall in love with... make mistakes, were human arent we? Eventually we will all find someone...

Omnia Vincet Amor!

Ali


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There are only a few good things that came out of Clarion- Chris Kirkpatrick of NSync, Kurt Angle (Pre WWF!) and any PHI SIGMA SIGMA!

[33girl]

Originally posted by P7A77:
More often than not, the older men involved in these situations have issues with control and probably fantasies about even younger girls. Either that or all the people their age just realized they were complete buffoons not worth their time. The younger women involved in these situations are often blinded by how sweet they are (at first), or how much more financially secure they are than the "boys" their age, or whatever else. Plus, there is always a bit of the "looking for daddy" thing.

I'm not saying that relationships with a vast age difference can't work. I'm saying that, in the way our society is, the vast majority of them are misguided and based more on the issues and insecurities the people involved have than on the relationships themselves.

And I know I'm coming off as a broken record, but I seem to have been misunderstood before, so I just want to make sure. The reason that all men your age that you date aren't good for you is the same reason the older men you date aren't good for you either. It's not the men. It's you. They're both different sides of the same coin. To say that you can't find what you want in your own agegroup is a cop-out. If you can't come to terms with why you keep getting in failed relationships and what it says about yourself, what makes you think you'll just happen to find the perfect guy who's a little bit older? It's not the men. It's you. The patterns are caused by you, and the same aspects of your personality that cause you to pick bad younger men will cause you to pick bad older men, too. You just might not realize it as quickly, and that's where the danger lies.

PS. "your" is a posssessive pronoun; "you're" is a contraction of "you are".

P7A777 -

Put down the Psychology 101. Take a nice bubble bath. Open up your heart and let the sun shine in.

Nothing more tiresome than a feminist who puts down other females. "It's not the men it's you"?!?! Come ON. If we all ever got as evolved as you think we should be, we'd be curing cancer on the fifth moon of Neptune. I don't think Ali ever said she thought the 30 year old was Mr Perfect Man and here you are getting on her s&$t.

Jerks are jerks whether they be 16 or 60. My boyfriend is 6 years older than me and used to date a woman 10 years older than him. I guess we're all just bloody warped.

p.s. Ali, you and your 30 year old can come over to my place any time.

[P7A77]

I think I've said more than I should on the subject. I'll say right now that I wasn't attacking AngelPhiSig, really, but just frustrated at all the attitudes I saw /after/ her post. But just to address a few specifics...

AngelPhiSig -

Yes, people mature at different rates. If you want to be technical, all the little Jewish boys and girls are "adults" at age 13. Hand 'em a gun and a beer and send 'em off to war! No, I do not think girls become women just when puberty sets in. A girl becomes a girl going through puberty when puberty sets in. There are still plenty of biological changes that happen all the way through high school and college. Hell, biological changes happen in your 50s. Is the criteria for being an "older woman" just the physical act of going through menopause?

A girl is not a woman until her early to mid 20s partially because there's still a lot of mental growing that has to happen (both physically and "spiritually" (not in the religous sense)). The process /starts/ at age 12 or so, but doesn't even begin to finish until at least 10 years from then. To look at it another way... I started college when I was 18. Does that mean I was automatically a graduate? While I may be more similar to graduates than I had been a few years previous, I still wasn't at that point, even though the process had started. Make sense?

As to the "beer drinking steriotypical college male" ... that goes exactly to my point about looking in the wrong places. I went through my entire college career hardly associating with that type at all. If that's the only type of person you're encountering (or even if it's just a simple majority), then you are absolutely looking in the wrong places. Hell, if you want to go the other way, I could say that men shouldn't date women their age because they don't want the stereotypical beauty and apparel obsessed college women. Again, not saying that's the case, because hardly any women I knew fell into that category, but I saw plenty of circles where it /was/ the norm. If you're finding the same types of people all the time, then the issue is you're looking for the same type of person, and that will carry through no matter what the age. The characteristics that make someone a beer drinking idiot at 22 will just manifest themselves differently at 32.

I won't comment much on the "double standard" because I don't believe I set one. The issue here was of a younger woman dating an older man. I feel the same issues apply to younger men dating older women, or younger men dating older men, or whatever. People are people. Gender roles are societal constructs.

As to your 20 year old friend who married a 35 year old ... come back to me in 30 years, when he's got one foot in the grave and she's going through the revitalization process that many women in their 50s experience. How the heck can either of them possibly be there for each other on the level that each other need?

I absolutely agree that there's no "one" specific person for anybody, which is why I think dating older simply because people your age are idiots is a bad, bad idea.

As to whether or not I've found a "soulmate" ... I've been with the same person for five years, and have been married for over three. It feel like we've been together for an eternity, but at the same time it feels like just a few weeks. In other words, it's a solid, lasting relationship, but still fresh and new and fun. We've already been through so much together, and we were able to help each other out because we were both at similar places in our lives, physically, mentally, and emotionally. We both dealt with the post-college blues at the same time. We both dealt with false-starting our careers at the same time. All of that. Yes, if I had found someone older I could have had the experience of that person to help me, but it wouldn't have been quite the same. On top of that, what would I have been able to give that person going through things later in life? Sure, a sympathetic ear, and the understanding that I would have for that person, but neither of us would ever be /quite/ on the same level.

33girl -

I can see how I'm coming off as putting down women. As I said before, it's just because the specific question was about a younger woman dating an older man. I'm not putting down women, I'm putting down people who get in bad relationships. But you're right ... jerks are jerks no matter what the age. Which again goes back to my point that if you're finding only jerks your own age, chances are you're going to find jerks at another age. But the novelty and difference of a serious age gap will mask it better for longer.


Well, so much for being brief. Again, I'm not trying to put down anyone specifically ... I just have some strong feelings on this subject, and for a few differnet reasons (as are either readily apparent or are making me seem schizophrenic). And now hopefully I really *am* done with the subject.

Oh, and it's "ulterior", not "alterior" ...

[AngelPhiSig]

P7A77:
I said I like to argue, I never said I could spell.

To everyone else...
Yay Im at 163 posts...lol...
# of intelegent thought provoking posts: many
# of fun posts to come: hehe

[James]

Its funny, I was talking to a friends mother a couple years ago, she's in her 60's now (don't tell her I told you she'll kill me) and is a single mother with a successful business living in Manhattan. And this guy called her out of the blue from California, a guy that had helped her son out when he went to U of P(where they filmed "The All-nighter" I believe). As fate would have it she was supposed to be traveling out there and they agreed to meet. She was very excited. She had sent him pictures and in tones of excitement she commented that she hoped that they didn't make her look fat. Then she kind of wanted reassurance on something: Someone had called her work and didn't immediately identify themselves (sounded like the guy might have been playing around on the phone being funny) she was in the middle of a business call and just hung-up on the person. Then she realized it was probably that guy, so she called her brother to ask what he thought and he said he would never talk to a woman again after that . . . they eventually met and didn't hit it off, he looked to old for her lol.

It was a conversation about the beginning of a relationship I could have had back in high school with a girl, or in college now . . . or even with someone in their 60's. And the Brother's response is something I could see one of my chapter brother's saying now . .. with 40 years difference in age and experience.

I think we throw words like maturity around without defining them. I am not sure we change on the inside all that much, especially where are emotions and relationships are concerned.

P7A77, had a good point when she said that people tend to repeat their bad relationships or there relationship patterns over and over again . . . how is this possible if we are miraculously supposed to mature as we grow older? Obviously some people never overcome their various neurosis, some people do, and some people never have them . . . but it all happens, or doesn't, in their own time that isn't matched to an arbitrary age.

And as far as the social things which is what we are really talking about, like more money, a nicer car, maybe more ready to settle down (that’s a big maybe), I am not sure that makes people all that different on the inside. Unless they have made those toys or a title a part of themselves which I consider a lessening of the person.

Lets change tracts for a second.

Raise your hand if you saw the movie Notting Hill will Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts.

He was a small bookstore owner from England and she was a Movie Star as big as well Julia Roberts. The differences in their lives and experiences were so great as to be like they were from different planets. Much greater than any piddling age thing would be.

At one point in the film they are having a conversation after having had many problems because of their different lifestyles. Julia wants to keep seeing Hugh, but Hugh is reluctant for some of the same basic reasons that have been cited here but with different words. Her life is too different, she is in such a different place, doomed to failure, she'll get bored with him etc.

But then she says something profound: (talking about all the awards, the fame, the accolades) "The fame thing isn’t real, you know. Don’t forget—I’m also just a girl. Standing in front of a boy. Asking him to love her."

It made me pause and think. And I thought it summed up a lot of our problems. We forget that at our core we are just boys and girls trying to build quality relationships, great experiences, and have value in life.

So when I say go for it, to AngelPhiSig, I am saying that if as a girl she is attracted to a boy then she should pursue it. Let everything else take care of itself. Will the relationship work forever? Probably not because most don't work forever. But that doesn't mean she might not have some great experiences in the meantime. Will everyone blame the age thing if it doesn't work? Probably, it’s the easiest thing to blame even if it isn't the whole story. But hey its easier to follow stereotypes than have to think.


[This message has been edited by James (edited August 04, 2001).]

[Miami1839]

James, Bravo

[CRMSNTiDEGRL717]

Originally posted by Miami1839:
James, Bravo

Ditto

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University of Alabama--- ROLL TIDE!!!!!

[James]

Thanks guys, its nice to be appreciated

[mgdzkm433]

I'm 23 years old. In less than two months I'm getting married . . . to a 30 year old man.

Is our relationship perfect? no. no relationship is perfect. Are we perfect for each OTHER? Yes. I've never in my life felt more in tune with another human being. This man is my soul mate, I have no doubt what-so-ever that this is true. We've lived together for over 2 years now--unmarried (duh) and have learned so much from one another.

We throw around the word 'maturity' so easily, but maturity isn't based on age. Maturity is based on experience. Now we can generalize and say that no 23 year old woman has more experience than her 30 year old future husband. But I've seen and experienced things that my future husband hasn't even come close to experiencing. Who's to say that I don't know about life.

I found a man who loves me for who I am, the fact he's 30 and I'm 23 has nothing to do with anything. He's not at a different place in his life than I am. We're not looking for different thing. We aren't 'idealistic'. He's not my sugar daddy. I'm not his young play thing. I've heard all the generalizations--nothing surpises me anymore. I know what we've got, and I don't have to explain that to anyone.

So sweetie--you follow your heart because YOU are the only one who knows what's best for you. You need to go for what you want in life--because it's not going to be handed to you.

[This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited August 06, 2001).]

[Shelacious]

Originally posted by AngelPhiSig:
Okay, Im 21, is it wrong for me to like someone who is around 30?

I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se, but unless you plan on just casually dating this person, it's important to know what you want out of the relationship. I have twice dated men 6 years my senior--once in high school and once just recently. The first time, I knew it would be a short-term gig, because why would a grown man really want to be with a high-schooler (even a super mature one) unless he had some emotional/maturity issues? I liked the fact he had is own place though . The second one I figured would be long-term, because I'm only interested in long-term/permenant, stable relationships at this point, so at his age, I figured he was too. Partially wrong, because he was a bit set in his ways and a wee bit lazy , but one of the only times I noticed the difference in age was when we were talking about the first movie we'd seen as youngsters without our parents. His was "Saturday Night Fever." and I think I was in elementary school.

Again, the real key is to determine what your goals are for dating a person that may have different long-terms relationship goals than yourself. When the age difference occurs makes a difference too. It seems that generally the older you are, the less issues dating someone older seems to have, although if you're 30, single, no kids and a blossoming career and your potential is 39, bitterly divorced with two young children in his custody, that may be more than you're interested in even if you have the same long-term goals---and then again, maybe not.