True or not?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

So, if everyone dislikes the long post, why quote it in its entirity over and over?

Just wondering.

While the cut and paste may be too long, if it's something that came to a mailbox, you can't leave a link to it, right?

Or does everyone object to the subject, too?

Seems like some would like to discuss it.

Why don't those of you who are making this observation also provide your opinions of the topic to get it started? It's always silly to just remind everyone that the topic isn't being discussed.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by LeslieAGD

Okay, I'll bite...it does not reflect my opinion. Breaking into someone's house (their individual, OWNED property) is not the same as coming into a "free" country (which no one owns, and which many of our ancestors - except the Native American Indians and Mexican Indians - immigrated to).

It isn't the same but I also don't agree with illegal immigration--since we actually do have immigration laws.

Isn't there a thread on immigration on here already? An interesting one, that is.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

DUH.

Put the message in a shorter, nonemail forward format, and people may give a damn enough to read and reflect on it.

THIS

Originally Posted by LeslieAGD

Okay, I'll bite...it does not reflect my opinion. Breaking into someone's house (their individual, OWNED property) is not the same as coming into a "free" country (which no one owns, and which many of our ancestors - except the Native American Indians and Mexican Indians - immigrated to).

Agreed, it's a crap analogy in the first place. Also a racist one, I like how the "burglars" did all the housework. There's no assumptions being made their at all!

I agree that illegal immigration is wrong, but it's a case where punishing the immigrants isn't actually going to solve anything and we need to make systemic changes instead. And a wall is sooo not the answer.

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

So, if everyone dislikes the long post, why quote it in its entirity over and over?

Just wondering.

While the cut and paste may be too long, if it's something that came to a mailbox, you can't leave a link to it, right?

Or does everyone object to the subject, too?

Seems like some would like to discuss it.

A) it's posted multiple places online
B)You're not discussing it either, you've made it into a meta discussion of why we're not discussing the topic.
C) It's crap logic and not worth the time, in my opinion. I'd discuss immigration, but not in that context. Start from any sort of logical place and we'll see.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

It isn't the same but I also don't agree with illegal immigration--since we actually do have immigration laws.

I didn't say that there isn't a need for immigration laws, or that I support illegal immigration, my post refered to the stupiditiy of the editorial which was addressed in the beginning of the thread.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Agreed, it's a crap analogy in the first place. Also a racist one, I like how the "burglars" did all the housework. There's no assumptions being made there at all!

I agree that illegal immigration is wrong, but it's a case where punishing the immigrants isn't actually going to solve anything and we need to make systemic changes instead. And a wall is sooo not the answer.

Ditto, Drolefille!

There are millions of illegal immigrants currently in the US and it's unreasonable to believe we can kick them all out. We need to do three things (in this order)...1) Stop any more immigrants from coming into the country illegally by better securing all of our borders, 2) Deport any illegal immigrants who commit crimes once they are here, and 3) Get the illegal immigrants who are here on a path to citizenship.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Why don't those of you who are making this observation also provide your opinions of the topic to get it started? It's always silly to just remind everyone that the topic isn't being discussed.

Because, in this case, I don't have an opinion that I care to share or that I think anyone is interested in.

It's just a waste of my time scrolling through the quotes to see if anyone does have an opinion I might find interesting.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Because, in this case, I don't have an opinion that I care to share or that I think anyone is interested in.

It's just a waste of my time scrolling through the quotes to see if anyone does have an opinion I might find interesting.

Then you're just here shooting the shit like we are.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Then you're just here shooting the shit like we are.

Pretty much.

But I do like to read opinions that might help to shape mine, so when the topic goes completely off track -- sometimes simply because of personalities -- it can get frustrating.

Complaining about posting entire articles and then quoting the whole post makes no sense to me at all, though.

[Tom Earp]

There two sets of laws here and do intertwin.

Breaking into a house is against the law.

Coming to this country is against the law if not properly done.

So, the tax money I spend on illegals is no different than yours.

Whom does that hurt?

I guess all of us.

DA you are correct, no one wants to discuss it, just attack the poster.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

So, the tax money I spend on illegals is no different than yours.

Neither are the taxes that illegal immigrants pay to support the government programs that benefit all of us.

I really dislike it when people assume that illegal immigrants are all freeloaders when most are working and paying taxes just like the rest of us. Illegal immigration is what happens when the immigration system makes it too difficult and cumbersome for people to get into the country legally. We shouldn't pretend like these people broke the law because they were too lazy to fill out some paperwork or something. For impovershed people from certain countries, it is incredibly difficult to get in legally and can take decades, if ever, to get in (if it weren't, why would people literally risk their lives to get in here?) And maybe your answer is that these people just shouldn't be able to get in, but I really don't think that a closed system like that will ever be successful. If you want people to follow the law in achieving X, you have to make it possible. If it is impossible, what is the incentive to follow the law?

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by skylark

I really dislike it when people assume that illegal immigrants are all freeloaders when most are working and paying taxes just like the rest of us.

Not being an ass here.... I just genuinely don't know. How do illegal immigrants pay income tax without a social security number? And if they have a SSN, how do they get it without a US birth certificate or citizenship paperwork?

I can see that they are paying sales taxes on anything they purchase in the US.

[skylark]

^^^ They have fake SSNs and income taxes are taken out under that SSN. I've heard of people receiving their annual social security statements to find out that someone was working under their same SSN. Fake social security cards can be purchased on the black market, from what I'm told. That is why it is pretty hard to hold employers of illegals responsible since most illegal workers look like they have legitimate paperwork.

ETA: Even for illegal immigrants who aren't using fake SSNs, many still pay taxes under ITINs, I guess. I was looking for something else and found this article on how the "economic stimulus" plan is being tailored to make sure the illegals who filed taxes under ITINs don't get the refunds. A more explanatory article on the ITIN practice can be found here.

[SWTXBelle]

Argument by analogy is a logical fallacy. That's why you won't find much more discussion on the topic the way it has been presented here, Tom.

And I still believe you are obliged to follow the law, even if it is inconvenient for you. (Do you only follow those laws which are convenient? Even if they penalize you or stand in the way of you making more money?) Otherwise, you are in violation of the law, and can hardly claim that you are a boon to your adopted country. We have enough home-grown criminals (those who break the law). If we need to tweak immigration law, that is one thing. But a country which does not control its borders cannot have any sense of security. Laws need to be enforced - or we have anarchy.

And I'm okay with the idea that those who came to this country illegally and had to pay taxes will not get a refund. Play by the rules - or don't expect to be rewarded.

Mexico, probably the country best know for its citizens coming here, is NOT a poor country. BUT the wealth is not distributed in a manner which enables the majority of the citizens to do well. That does not mean that those citizens who are impoverished are entitled to break U.S. law. In fact, I will argue that things will not change if those citizens who are being most impacted by policies leave the country.

[skylark]

The whole point of having laws is so that they deter undesired behavior. If the deterrent against breaking the law (being shipped back) isn't as bad as the reality of following the law (staying in an unsecure, impovershed state with little to no hope of something better), then why do we expect that people will choose to follow the law? Sure, it's easy to say that following the law is good in itself -- from our relatively privileged positioning in socioeconomic status. I tend to say that, too. I think back to times that I've taken the higher, ethical road instead taking an easier route and am proud that I played by the rules... but then again I was in a relatively privileged position to start with and had the option of following the rules. I wasn't in a position of starving to death or not having the ability to protect and provide for my children as a consequence of taking the high road.

I don't know, I think it is hard to put ourselves in such an incredibly different position and ask whether we would hypothetically make the ethical choice over the choice for a better life. At some point when there seem to be so many people in violation of the law, you have to ask yourself whether enforcing the law is going to be more expensive than revising it to make it easier to follow.

And I'm not sure how I feel on illegal immigrants not getting the refund. I tend to agree with you that it tends to reward people whose presence in the country breaks the law, but on the other hand isn't the whole point of the stimulus to give more to the people who are likely to spend it, thus reviving OUR economy? So wouldn't it hurt our economy more to not give them the stimulus refund? I'm just not sure I follow that the reasoning behind the refund changes whether you are here legally or illegally. I could honestly go either way on it, though.

[SWTXBelle]

The odds of being deported are very low - and many times, the deportee just heads right back. And I still don't believe that following the law is something that only the privileged are required to do. There are other ways to bring about economic change than immigration - and in fact, there are Mexican industries that are having to try and work with draconian Mexican immigration law to bring in immigrants, because they do not have enough workers for the industry! (I realize illegal immigrants come from all over, but I am most familiar with the situation in Mexico, being from Texas and having a brother in Texas law enforcement.)
It is also a slap in the face to those immigrants who DO follow the law, and deal with the paperwork and delay, to tell them that they are no better than someone who came here illegally. Many legal immigrants have no patience with those who thumb their noses at the law, and who can blame them?
As I posted earlier, I am all for discussing changing immigration law, but will never support amnesty. We need to make it easier for law-abiding immigrants to come, NOT reward those who will not follow our laws.

[DSTCHAOS]

It's safe to say that the average illegal immigrant isn't a tax payer, aside from sales tax.

There can be all sorts of guesses regarding paying taxes with fake SSNs or ITIN, but there's no consistent evidence of this. Even if there was evidence of illegal immigrants paying with fake SSNs, are they to be commended for having fake SSNs? Fake SSNs can be used to cheat our social programs and drain the system dry. Paying taxes is the last on the priority list when people are draining the system, just like American citizens with fake SSNs and who are draining the system aren't applauded.

I completely understand wanting a better life and not wanting to wait for the bureaucratized process of immigrating. However, laws don't cease to exist just because there are people breaking them or because many people break them for "understandable" reasons. An American citizen who shoplifts food to feed a family is still arrested and the punishment will be based on a number of factors but, chances are, there will be some type of punishment.

These other countries' laws and punishments aren't disposable, or easily dismissed by visiting or relocating noncitizens, so ours shouldn't be.