Sex Change and Membership

[LionTamer]

Oh, man, take one punchy afternoon at work, add a trainwreck recruitment thread and a dash of Austin Powers, and viola!!!! A whole new thread is created!!!!

It's a man, baby!!!

[Munchkin03]

I think that the "type" of person who would undergo a sex change would also become less active in his/her GLO as the years went on--probably well before any operation or treatment. It would probably be one more figment of their "previous life" that they'd be willing to let go of. I doubt that many post-op transsexuals are lining up for AI.

As progressive as we'd like to think our respective groups are, they are still very conservative and bastions of traditional behavior.

That said, if I wanted a man in my sorority, well, I would have joined a co-ed.

[jon1856]

BON-One of my Brothers, after graduation, did have an operation.
I found out while doing a search for my pledge class reunion.
Up until then, I believed that there was only one woman member of SAE.
My Brother is still listed, just under a new name.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by SnuKnight172

Here is a twist to the situation:

What if a man/woman at the age of 18 decides to have the surgery and become the opposite gender? Can we descriminate at this point if by all legal means Michelle became Michael or if Christopher became Christina? Would your fraternity or sorority let this person rush as their new gender?

Absolutely. We can discriminate for any damn reason we want to. It's just that certain reasons for discrimination can't be actually spoken. If your state has a law (and if you're in Cali, it probably does) forbidding discrimination against transsexuals and y'all found this to be unacceptable, simply cut 'em. No explanation need be given.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I think that the "type" of person who would undergo a sex change would also become less active in his/her GLO as the years went on--probably well before any operation or treatment. It would probably be one more figment of their "previous life" that they'd be willing to let go of. I doubt that many post-op transsexuals are lining up for AI.

I think you are right. I doubt that the member would want to continue in a group that reflects the previous identity.

As far as a transsexual rushing, it's hard for me to imagine too many chapters where the person is going to be "a good fit" to use an expression under discussion in another thread.

Even if you made a deliberate effort not to release the person for this particular issue, I think that the intangible aspects of what people look for in a good member would be genuinely off.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Absolutely. We can discriminate for any damn reason we want to. It's just that certain reasons for discrimination can't be actually spoken. If your state has a law (and if you're in Cali, it probably does) forbidding discrimination against transsexuals and y'all found this to be unacceptable, simply cut 'em. No explanation need be given.

Maybe you're more guided by Thoreau in terms of your moral obligation to resist laws you think are unjust, but this position seems hypocritical: choose to break the law but just make it impossible to be caught.

I agree that if you never even discuss why someone was disqualified for something, no one will be able to prove that you discriminated, but in this example, it would be clear that you did. And unless you are someone who generally believes that we have no obligation to follow laws we don't agree with, it's odd that you, Mr. Law Guy, would float this idea out there.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I agree that if you never even discuss why someone was disqualified for something, no one will be able to prove that you discriminated, but in this example, it would be clear that you did. And unless you are someone who generally believes that we have no obligation to follow laws we don't agree with, it's odd that you, Mr. Law Guy, would float this idea out there.

Truth be told, the way membership selection generally works does not lend itself to disclosure of reasons. Such things are never discussed outside of that room and the ballots are secret.

At any rate, even assuming that you could prove the discrimination occurred, it still might be legal since gender is one of the central aspects of men's and women's fraternities. Transgendered individuals may not meet that organization's requirements along those lines and therefore, the discrimination would be permissible.

The legislative intent is not to force college fraternities and sororities to allow members they don't want. The legislative intent is generally more along the lines of public services and accommodations, workforce issues, etc. At any rate, you never even get to that question because the person suing to get initiated has a burden of proof which would be impossible to prove. How does one prove the results of an unrecorded secret ballot and the reasons behind any one of the ballots cast against association (any of which would have sufficed to exclude that person)?

Impossible. Such a law would be completely unenforceable in the context of our organizations.

Transgendered folks can start their own organizations or they can join Southron's.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Truth be told, the way membership selection generally works does not lend itself to disclosure of reasons. Such things are never discussed outside of that room and the ballots are secret.

At any rate, even assuming that you could prove the discrimination occurred, it still might be legal since gender is one of the central aspects of men's and women's fraternities. Transgendered individuals may not meet that organization's requirements along those lines and therefore, the discrimination would be permissible.

The legislative intent is not to force college fraternities and sororities to allow members they don't want. The legislative intent is generally more along the lines of public services and accommodations, workforce issues, etc. At any rate, you never even get to that question because the person suing to get initiated has a burden of proof which would be impossible to prove. How does one prove the results of an unrecorded secret ballot and the reasons behind any one of the ballots cast against association (any of which would have sufficed to exclude that person)?

Impossible. Such a law would be completely unenforceable in the context of our organizations.

Transgendered folks can start their own organizations or they can join Southron's.

Well, I'm pretty sure they can't join Southron's, but once members, they might not be expelled I believe was his point. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure his possible interpretation is that different that the average person's. I don't know that we accept the idea that post-op transsexuals are simply the new assigned gender. And I don't know if that's what the non-discrimination clauses demand.

Within the context of our organizations, I agree that issues of gender are always going to be strange because we can legally discriminate in a way that other institutions can't since we're by definition single sex.

[ErinIsBadNews]

If it were me, I would not be actively involved as an alumni. I think that it would be too much like pretending that I was something I'm not. I can only imagine that after a lifetime of feeling like you don't belong, being involved in a sorority would not be the best experience. idk. lol.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by jon1856

BON-One of my Brothers, after graduation, did have an operation.
I found out while doing a search for my pledge class reunion.
Up until then, I believed that there was only one woman member of SAE.
My Brother is still listed, just under a new name.

I want to know more about this. Can you tell more?

[cuteASAbug]

What I would give to be a fly on the wall at that recruitment:
ABC Rusher: I love your shoes! You have great style!
Rushee: Thank you so much. The ability to wear cute Manolos like these was part of the reason for why I wanted to get a sex change.

[FSUZeta]

but would manolos come in size 16?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

but would manolos come in size 16?

Nice.

[ChildoftheHorn]

Hmm....

I would say that if you are a gender-confused individual, sorority membership is probably the last thing on your mind. Seriously, if you consider yourself more like a guy...why would you want to be around flower prints and pink for long periods of time?

I really don't think that a guy who thinks himself a girl would want to be in a trashed out fraternity house and do "manly" things.

Homosexuality is something else entirely. I know some homosexual men who are in fraternities, but they are "manly" and are not at all the stereotype. LOL, most of their brothers don't even know because they don't suspect it even though they freely admit it. There was a guy who tried to rush the sororities last year, but it was shot down. I don't really know any homosexual females, so I cannot comment at all on that.

Be REALISTIC PEOPLE!!!!!

FYI, HQ would probably never know unless you were very very public with it or told them.

[Thetagirl218]

So this an interesting thread. I honestly don't know why a fraternity alum who went through a sex change would want to stay a member? I know that sounds harsh, but a fraternity represents a men's only organization (I am NOT refeering to women's fraternities here), and isn't the point of having a sex change to embrace the woman you were all along? So why would this previous male join a fraternity anyways? Its just confusing to me.

Also, I was waiting for the whole homosexual topic to come up and it did. I know both fraternity and sorority members who are homosexual and this is not a problem in their chapters or universities.