ETSU chapter, Iota Omnicron Zeta

[GammaZeta]

I'd have to agree with Tom.

Do you really want to OWN your house? Is it really worth it?

Look at Gamma Zeta, we kept our very fist chapter house, where so many "1st's" for our fraternity happened, running for over 90 years. Now in a few weeks that historic house will be torn down, demolished to make way for classrooms.

Unfortunately for GZ, we didn't have the alumni support, and for decades running the house, mortgage, maintenance, etc., fell on the president's shoulders. When the last few presidents tried to recover, set things right, everything exploded.

It was very easy for our volunteer housing corp. to simply walk away and become void years ago. You get a few members that are indifferent or don't care or become frustrated or become too busy, and you can really take a screwing.

Also, it's not like buying a new home where you are better off putting money into a mortgage than rent every month. You will never see your investment back. Every person will have to pay a substantial rent, even when the house is paid off. GZ was paid off years ago, but the cost of upkeep, oil, and TAXES still killed us.

Lease something. Find a nice house, sign a longterm lease, have a landlord become responsible.

It is much easier on the chapter.

[Mooch279]

1) What happened to the money from the sale from the original house?

2) Is renting long term really better than turning over the deed to LCAP? if you have a landlord eventually they will most likely want to sell it and then where does that leave the chapter?

[JConleyWCU]

Wow... you guys are quick.

Having a house is our LONGTERM goal. I know it is sad, but I probably will not ever live in “the” house. Our alumni are probably the most supportive alumni you can have in some cases. I know that it was not too long ago that the house was sold and the chapter kicked off. So I believe them to be very touchy on this subject. As to the money from the old house, I am not sure, very good question. The problem I see is the area we live in. Cullowhee is an incredibly small town. The only traffic lights are on campus, and WCU provides revenue into the po-dunk town. The problem is locals who do not want campus to expand, who are killing the school by keeping it dry, and not renting to college students. Renting to a fraternity would probably not go over very well, because of the liability.

[GammaZeta]

1) Find the money. Find out what happened to it. Who actually owned the house?

2) Renting a cardboard box in a back alley is better than turning the deed over to LCAP. I'm not going to repeat my chapter's experience with LCAP as a "landlord" since the person in charge at the time is gone, but you can either PM me or search the archives for other brothers negative experiences.

Who says they have to rent a "fraternity" house? You and some friends just can't lease a house together???

[docroc67]

[QUOTE=GammaZeta;1482973]1) Find the money. Find out what happened to it. Who actually owned the house?

2) Renting a cardboard box in a back alley is better than turning the deed over to LCAP.

Hi,

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

However, I think that this statement does not represent Zeta- Upsilon Zeta's experience with LCAP. That is what I have to go by.

I don't know if I ever will understand Gamma Zeta's experience with LCAP because it is so different from mine.

Joe's gone. Based on my personal and long time experience with him I judge him to be a fine and honorable man. He kept every commitment to us and we are now in a position to occupy our Chapter House next school year.

Of course, we have to fill the Chapter House. That is not LCAP's duty. If we can put enough good men in the Chapter House we will have no problems. If we don't, it is our failure not LCAP.

I have to believe that the "disconect" between LACP and Gamma Zeta happened because it's Alumni didn't step up to the real world challenge of providing a quality Chapter House to it's Active members. Just where were the Alumni? What did they do to make everything work?

I suspect little to nothing.

Where was the Active Chapter? How much respect and love for this historic building did they show?

I suspect little or nothing.

In my opinion, LCAP didn't lose Gamma Zeta's Chapter House.

Gamma Zeta lost it's Chapter House before LCAP was even involved because its members didn't do their job of caring for their property.

LCAP never would have been in the picture if Gamma Zeta would have taken care of its business.

Having said all that, I want Gamma back as an active Zeta. It is important to our collective history.

But, I suspect that this won't happen soon because of a combination of local opposition, university hostility, and no real leadership or commitment from Gamma Zeta Alumni.

Who lost Gamma Zeta's Chapter House?

I think Gamma Zeta lost the property itself.

Unfortunately, a "cardboard box in a back alley" is not even an option for our Flagship Gamma Zeta because Gamma Zeta failed to keep its obligations to maintain it's property.

I am sorry that it played out this way.

Yours in ZAX,

Mike Raymond, ZU-384

[GammaZeta]

No Doc, I was not referring to Joe. Joe was the guy on board that inherited a lot of problems, I don't blame him.

Yeah, we didn't have much alumni support, if any. Which was one of the root causes of our problems.

No, LCAP didn't lose the chapter house either. I'm not blaming LCAP for anything like that. You are right, LCAP would not have been in the picture if we got our stuff straightened out 15 years ago.

Actually, you are only partly right on Gamma coming back.

Pike, who were kicked off campus 7 years ago for, well let's just say some VERY, VERY bad things, just started a non-house chapter this year and have 30 men in one semester.

It also isn't for lack of alumni leadership as well. I've personally heard and contacted over 300 alumni that have pledged support. In fact, HQ is VERY well aware of our efforts for over a year now and several of us have personally brought it to the attention of the "higher ups".

Quite simply, HQ does not want Gamma back. Why? I suspect they are again relying on false information. Not their fault really, they have hundreds of other priorities.

Mike, we never failed to "keep its obligations to maintain it's property". In fact, with our limited resources, we did a damn fine job of it.

Unfortunately, it was LCAP that didn't maintain the property, not us. Floors that were torn up with no covering for almost a year, failure to put and maintain locks on the outside doors, mold, lack of heat, unsafe porches and stairs with lack of railings, broken toilets, I can go on.

I'm not blaming LCAP for the demise of GZ, they just were not good landlords. Simple as that. Distance, priorities, I don't know why. I'm sure you did have a different opinion with your experience. There is not much to understand about our experience.

All that is really moot now though.

In a few weeks, the house will be torn down. A TRUE historic piece will be gone forever. If we're lucky, we may get a small 6 x 6 bronze saying this is the former location. Maybe in 30 or 40 years leadership at HQ will get on the ball and recolonize.

I actually now think it's better not to recolonize. Umass isn't what it was. Greek life will never be the same. Fraternities have been reduced to "club" status. I don't want LXA coming back as a "club" or something spare time. I want it back as a fraternity. We went out with one hell of a bang, on top. Great memories, everlasting friendships.

I'm content on letting GZ live on in our memories and in our history.

[Tom Earp]

This is the biggest and most concise post I have seen from You My Brother GZ and makes a tremendous amount of sense for those that are in the know!

A House can be a Boon or a Boondogle! Make money or be a money pit!

1.The Chapter must have enough membership to fill the house.
2. Keep the prices in line with the Dorms and apartments.
3. Do not offer a food service unless catered and the price is right.
4. Charge parlor fees for those who do not live in the house but use it.

If you cannot afford it, rent!

We at LX Z rented two houses, owned the third and built a 4 th on the property we owned along with the new house that cost 3/4 Million dollars.

We have to have it full and pay the loan or we are out and closed down. So far is not looking like it is not going to ahppen for the Fall Sememster.

Why, recruitment.

When getting a new house that is big enough, there HAS to be members who can pay for it.

Maybe just renting a house and being able to place enough Brothers in it will be easier in the short term.

What you will need is a house that you can call home, big enough to meet if need be or at least a central point to call Your House.

Do not bite off more than you can chew!

[GammaZeta]

Tom, this is absolutely correct and should be the standard:

"A House can be a Boon or a Boondogle! Make money or be a money pit!

1.The Chapter must have enough membership to fill the house.
2. Keep the prices in line with the Dorms and apartments.
3. Do not offer a food service unless catered and the price is right.
4. Charge parlor fees for those who do not live in the house but use it.

If you cannot afford it, rent!"

The problem with dealing with fraternity housing is location. Universities and Colleges, by their nature, drive up housing prices. They take up a lot of land, have readily available clients to businesses (which take up more space), employees want to be near where they work, and are generally more desirable.

So fraternities, in wanting to locate near the university or college, have to pay above average prices for substandard accomadations. Supply and demand.

Which is why #2 is so hard to accomplish. 99% of the time you can find a nicer apartment or room for rent for the same rent, or less, than you would pay to live in a fraternity.

In Amherst, land is valuable. Most of it is either preserved farm land or for open space, or already developed. And if you do find a piece available for development, good luck trying to get the town's approval (this goes for any developer, not just greeks).

The apartments in Amherst are completely filled EVERY year. If you don't want to pay the price, fine, the landlord will just rent it out to the next person who will pay the price.

[justaflaneur]

Note Section VII-24 of the Statutory Code: "Each Chapter, before purchasing any real property, shall cause to be formed a House Corporation incorporated under the laws of the state or province in which the property is located to hold title to such property."

ZAX,
Lynn Chipperfield

[GammaZeta]

I think that answers you question.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by justaflaneur

Note Section VII-24 of the Statutory Code: "Each Chapter, before purchasing any real property, shall cause to be formed a House Corporation incorporated under the laws of the state or province in which the property is located to hold title to such property."

ZAX,
Lynn Chipperfield

Lynn as you pointed out it is true but, I have come across another Brother at another Zeta (PM Me if interested), that ran into the same problems as Gamma and felt they were done wrong. This too was an old Zeta at a Large University!


But here again when the property was turned over to LCAP there became problems and promiseses that were not kept.

Granted, I am hearing from a one sided conversation but this is no disgruntled Active, it is a respected Alum Brother.

But, once again, it boils down to having enough Brothers to afford and keep it up. If not, do not rush into a house owning situation until enough money and membership is attained.

[GammaZeta]

The only way I would advocate for buying a house for a chapter would be under certain circumstances.

1. Raise enough money before purchase so you can avoid taking out a large mortgage. This of course would take hundreds of thousands of dollars, and would be very difficult.

2. Set up a LARGE trust that cannot be touched by any member or alumni, for the sole purpose of having enough money for taxes, improvements, repairs, and possibly recruitment funds. It should be large enough where most of those can be paid by interest. Again, a considerable amount of money.

Basically, take the responsibility out of the hands of the brothers and alumni. Make sure you have enough assets to carry the house through difficult times. Have a safety net.

Like I said before, a Housing Corp. can easily be abandoned. One bad batch will spoil every batch for the future.

I would go one step further and put the assets in some sort of trust, where the trustee has a fiduciary obligation to the chapter and beneficiaries.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by GammaZeta

The only way I would advocate for buying a house for a chapter would be under certain circumstances.

1. Raise enough money before purchase so you can avoid taking out a large mortgage. This of course would take hundreds of thousands of dollars, and would be very difficult.

2. Set up a LARGE trust that cannot be touched by any member or alumni, for the sole purpose of having enough money for taxes, improvements, repairs, and possibly recruitment funds. It should be large enough where most of those can be paid by interest. Again, a considerable amount of money.

Basically, take the responsibility out of the hands of the brothers and alumni. Make sure you have enough assets to carry the house through difficult times. Have a safety net.

Like I said before, a Housing Corp. can easily be abandoned. One bad batch will spoil every batch for the future.

I would go one step further and put the assets in some sort of trust, where the trustee has a fiduciary obligation to the chapter and beneficiaries.

Okay, GZ agree, but where is the money going to come from?

Only two places, Zeta and Alumnus. So how will they feel if do not have some control over it?

You are correct in saying if the HC sucks, it can cause a ton of problems. Manytimes, it only takes the President to gum up the works. But, isn't this true within any organization?

Who would these trustees be?

[GammaZeta]

"Okay, GZ agree, but where is the money going to come from?"

Isn't THAT the $64,000 question? Money, money, money.

That is exactly why I would advocate for NOT buying a house. Where IS the money going to come from. That is why my scenario would be almost impossible to acheive.

"Only two places, Zeta and Alumnus. So how will they feel if do not have some control over it?"

That is exaclty why they should set up a trust with the money. Put an independent person in charge of the trust who has only the best interest of the chapters at heart and is above influence of alumni and the zeta.

If an alumni donates money for a general cause, it should go to the best interests of the chapter. If an alumni wants to donate money, for perhaps building a library or purchasing rush t-shirts, that's fine. Give the money to the trust on that condition. But general donations, especially in raising money to purchase or maintain a house, should be given to an independent source with a fiduciary obligation to the chapter.

I don't believe that housing corps. are the way to go anymore.

I do think LCAP was a step in the RIGHT direction, taking away the nuts and bolts operation of the physical chapter house out of the equation where it was able to become corrupt or mismanaged.

I don't think that LCAP should have been in the actual property business.

Ideally, I think LCAP would work best if it was set up as a trust for chapters with a manager. LCAP would make sure taxes, etc., would be paid from the rents. Then, other problems or items, such as maintenance, etc. would be handled by the housing corp., which would contact LCAP as trustee for approval of funds for such repairs, etc.

This would make the housing corp. into a landlord of sorts. The housing corp. would be able to better respond, evaluate, know the house better and would be local. LCAP as a landlord is not a good idea, LCAP as a fiscal manager is a good idea.

[JonoBN41]

Originally Posted by GammaZeta

"Only two places, Zeta and Alumnus. So how will they feel if do not have some control over it?"
If an alumni donates money for a general cause...

Sorry to break in, but can we get one thing straight once and for all?

"Alumni" is plural (many); "alumnus" is singular (one).

We are alumni. You are an alumnus.

Thanks. Great discussion. Carry on.