Observations

[DoggyStyle82]

Sorry about the long post. To answer your question, nothing can be done. New members are in the proverbial Catch 22. Intake programs are designed to meet the specifications of lawyers, banks and insurance companies. Intake has nothing to do with creating and fostering the fraternal spirit, training new members, nor indoctrinating them into the philosophy and purpose of the org. MIP is designed to gain membership in compliance with non-members guidelines. There used to be a distinct difference among the 4 sororities. Now they are indistinguishable. Now interests do research on the net, read In Search of Sisterhood, go to everyones rush, knows everyones call, party strolls, then decide on a sorority, 2 weeks later write a check and a weekend of MIP, voila!, you have an instant AKADSTZPBSGR. You might as well flip a coin. It is the pledge process (the indoctrination period) that differentiates the org. Without that, you basically have the same org, different colors.

[the411]

So, with that in mind, do you think it's possible for someone who wasn't pledged to pledge someone else? In other words, what about those chapters that are by-the-book (i.e. paper, cat, skaters, etc.) and ostracized by local collegiate chapters because of it? How can pledging become the new chapter trend if no one in the chapter has pledged? I know of chapters like this, but it's difficult to know whether or not someone who isn't a part of the chapter can step in to help out when the current chapter members are anti-pledging.



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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[the411]

Another thought...

Reading back over PositivelyAKA's post, I thought of another question for you, Frat:

How do you feel about post-pledging those who came through the MIP? This happens in many chapters-- namely those known for being paper. Is post-pledging the answer?

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[PositivelyAKA]

thanks DoggyStyle82 couldn't have said it better myself. peace.

[DoggyStyle82]

411: you open another can of worms. Pledging is a carefully constructed process. It can easily degenerate into hazing in the wrong (untrained) hands. When you haven't ever been "on line" you don't know where to draw the line. A person who has never pledged, but then pledges someone else is probably doing it for the wrong reasons. The situation is most dangerous when a chapter loses its continuity. There is just too much danger with unpledged or half-pledged (only hazed) people overseeing a line.

[DoggyStyle82]

411: BTW, if you ain't never been in the cut, you should not ever swing, unless you are willing to take the some first.(speaking for myself only).

[DoggyStyle82]

411: I'll have to respond to your private e-mail. Look for it soon.

[PrettyKitty]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
Sorry about the long post. To answer your question, nothing can be done. New members are in the proverbial Catch 22. Intake programs are designed to meet the specifications of lawyers, banks and insurance companies. Intake has nothing to do with creating and fostering the fraternal spirit, training new members, nor indoctrinating them into the philosophy and purpose of the org. MIP is designed to gain membership in compliance with non-members guidelines. There used to be a distinct difference among the 4 sororities. Now they are indistinguishable. Now interests do research on the net, read In Search of Sisterhood, go to everyones rush, knows everyones call, party strolls, then decide on a sorority, 2 weeks later write a check and a weekend of MIP, voila!, you have an instant AKADSTZPBSGR. You might as well flip a coin. It is the pledge process (the indoctrination period) that differentiates the org. Without that, you basically have the same org, different colors.

I was just passing through and thought I would comment. What differences are you referring to? I am very curious to know what you are talking about.

As for pledging, it will never end. But in my opinion, people do crazier and more dangerous things now then they did then, because certain old heads can't let go of the process and keep making the younger greeks feel like they need to be "made right"
in order to get half the respect.

The powers that be have pushed membership intake on us and refuse to listen when we say that it's not working. They point to chapters that seem to have sucessful intake processes and say, see that's a good example of the validity of MIP...but in all actuality these same chapters are pledging underground.

I am not saying that I am for or against anything. But what I am saying is that a real solution must be met in order to correct the problem because the band-aid called MIP is not working.

I am proud to say I earned my letters, and can't a soul take that away from me!

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[Hudson]

I find your arguments to be interesting. AFter all the deaths, mamming, paralysis, broken bones, organs, etc., now you guys are reflecting on the RIGHT way to pledge. Where were you when things were getting out of hand? You know where you were? Right there in the middle of the madness! All you ole school Bruhs criticizing the new members who did MIP need to stop. Its ALL YOUR FAULT why pledging was banned. If yall was policing back then, then you would be pledging others, legally now. Don't blame the new people for something YOU CREATED. Enough is enough!!!!!

[DoggyStyle82]

HUDSON:

What is the source of your anger? This seems kind of personal to you,

I can truthfully say that I have never hurt, injured, emotionally wounded, nor scarred anyone under my jurisdiction. Despite what you may think that you know, there were relatively few deaths and maimings (1 is too many) relative to the number of succesful initiations.

Perception and perspective is the key.

[DoggyStyle82]

CUJO87:

Team, is that Pi Mu at San Diego? Anyway, I see that we are in agreement.

Anyway, it was not Old School pledging that caused MIP. It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents. Since the NHPC did not or could not reasonably argue the cultural significance and the necesssity of our traditions, traditional pledging was done away with altogether and replaced with intake.

I don't argue against Intake members, just the intake process.

[Hudson]

That may be true. But what was the nature or reason for the new state laws. How or why did they come about. Because of the things that got out of hand prior to 1990. I'm not arguing with the intentions and the value of pledging. I just find it that some greeks members are in denial of why the MIP Process came about. I think the MIP process is good thing because it forces those who chooses to participate in an underground process to be more careful. Ofcourse you still have those who don't give a f--k. They risk expulsion just they could beat people unconscious.

[DoggyStyle82]

I am still not sure where you are coming from or what you have experienced. The new state laws came about because of an advocacy group called "CHUCK". A white woman whose white son died pledging a white fraternity. He died from the result of a stupid drinking prank that is more typical of white frats than Black. The family could not press charges or have the perpetrators discipline by the school or the law. As a result of her advocacy, similar to MADD, many states adopted stricter anti-hazing laws, many of which made very innocuous activities to be considered hazing. None of these laws were as a result of any NPHC hazing incidents.

[KnowledgeEternal]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents.

Wow you learn something new everyday. I go to Morehouse and I didn't know that. I know that a lot of the frats have just recently come back to campus(Alphas in 98, Ques in 99, Kappas 00-01); but no one but the frats and the administration really knows for sure what happened. There have been a RIDICULOUS amount of rumors though.

BTW, Do you know anything about Morehouse's process now? If so what do you think about it? I have my own opinions on it, I just want to see some others.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

Ahhh...just the thread that i was looking for...

*let me preface my question by offering a story*

Does everyone remember A Different World?
when A Different World first aired I was a sophomore in high school. And I loved it! So did my parents. We would watch it every thursday (reminiscing on when "black" television was informative and not a minstrel show). There were two episodes that now that I watch it every morning that I absolutely love! The first one was when Ron was pledging Kappa Lambda Nu (a fictional fraternity...for those that don't know)...and the second was when Kim was pledging Whitley's sorority Alpha Delta Rho (another fictional organization).

I remember watching the first episode about Ron with my mom...and watching the twinkle in her eyes as she "took a stroll down memory lane". It was also the episode that boosted me for my cotillion that was to happen in the spring with her sorority. She and I talked that evening about her experience on line back in the hmmmm...late 50's early 60's. Yes, she went through some sh*t...and she also experienced some great highs. But she never regreted the experience.

Later...I saw the episode when Kim was pledging and then and until this day I get pissed with her. So what she was a pre-med major and had two jobs...if "Big Sister Gorgeous One" (Whitley's name) told her to get up and get her breakfast at 5am then damn well she better do it! And you know what...I was pissed that she rallied the other line members to her side. AND SHE STILL GOT IN! Nah! I was angered because Kim did not know nor did not consider the value of what she was learning. Sisterhood above all else. Unity and devotion to the "history of Alpha Delta Rho"...you feel me? I had more respect for Ron and how he showed that Brotherhood was all for one and one for all. There is no time for "I" in brotherhood.

I am saying all this because i'm sure by now that Doggystyle82 is shocked that for once I agree.

Although I am not a greek...and I do bereave those who were killed and am saddened by those who were maimed by hazing. I must also say that those are exceptions to the rule. And if you look at the cases for the most part these incidences happened...after MIP.

My question is...

It is understood that Old Skool Greeks are not as "accepting" of those who are "made" by the MIP. But it is also understood that anyone who pledges now will, for the most part, be "made" through that process...and therefore they are technically victims of it and not always willing participants.
If you could restructure the pledging process by incorporating aspects of the MIP and the "old skool" way of pledging what would it be?
AND
Why has this not been done?
AND
What does one do with a member who is a "mad hazer" who consistently abuses and misuses their power?

*just a personal spin before i end*

Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement.

these things are the things that i was told by my mom (of course in sorority form) and other friends that made them desire and pursue their respective organizations more. when i toured HBCU's as a 13-15 year old i remember seeing folx on line. And thinking damn...that is tight!

While I do not agree with being physically emotionally abused...I do believe that certain forms of the old skool way are some things that bind men and women together.

As I end this I will just say that I have in the past been ridiculed for thinking this way. Those who ridicule me say..."you don't know what it was like! it was horrible! and you don't respect yourself if you will let someone make you do something!" You can find these statements in many places on the net...if you voice the opinion (non-greek and greek alike) that there is some validity to the old skool way of pledging.

I just want to know how can there be a happy medium?

Peace