Canadians blame US for 9/11?!? - Page 2

Rudey · #16 09-07-2006, 05:49 PM

Let's see, they want to spread Islam all over the world and destroy Western culture. Years of planning went into this. Yeah we caused that. Only an idiot would believe that.

-Rudey
--I'm sorry that Canada has so many idiots but perhaps they can move to Mexico or something.

ASUADPi · #17 09-07-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

That is quite the dangerous idea though. There must be a level of personal responsibility in controlling one's actions. One of our primary reasons for punishment is to avoid retribution. In most crimes (and in people's lives in general) something prompts a response. If I hadn't gotten fired, I wouldn't have stolen. If he hadn't said that, I wouldn't have killed him. Hell, if I hadn't gotten paid this afternoon, I wouldn't have bought that crack. The boys at Columbine should have taken the appropriate route regarding being made fun of. Millions of teens are made fun of daily, and few respond violently (at least to this level). Continuing my most constant theme on these boards, our society must adopt and return to the notion of personal responsibility.

I totally agree.

As a teacher, I see it day in and day out (in first graders) of not taking personal responsibility. Their first graders! Who the hell do you think their learning it from. If kids are learning at 7 years old (if not younger) that they don't have to take responsibility for any of their actions, it is most definately going to translate to how they behave as a teenager and as an adult.

As for being teased, I'm sorry, unfortunately being a kids and growing up you get teased. Fact of life. How you deal with it is a whole other issue though. I was tormented in elementary school, teased in middle school, and got some teasing in high school, doesn't mean I went out and got a gun and shot up the school because I was teased.

Hence 9/11, I don't care how crappy our foreign policy is, we DID NOT deserve, nor did we ASK for a bunch of psychotic terrorists to hijack 4 planes and kill over 5000 people, and 95% of them were civilians. So I'm not sure how 9/11 was "our fault" or that we somehow "asked for it", because our foreign policy sucks.

Just my opinion. Agree with me or disagree with me.

KSig RC · #18 09-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

ETClarify: this is not a way of "blaming" America or absolving Bin Ladin. But after Columbine, teachers and students stepped back and said "what could we do differently. I think America should do the same thing.

This absolutely DOES 'blame' America.

If, upon reflection, "something should be done differently" this means that the past actions had a flaw in them. This flaw would then be your 'causal' relationship - and, just as in your psych experiments, causation = responsibility = fault = blame.

You can talk in circles all you want, but I don't think you realize the gravity of what the inference cycle requires here.

shinerbock · #19 09-07-2006, 06:47 PM

This is getting more complicated now. Of course America's actions prompted some terrorism directed towards us, that doesn't mean America is to "blame." Regarding preventative action, just because something is punishing does not keep it from being preventative. The two are not mutually exclusive. My mindset, and the one I hope is shared by other Americans, is that we should not live in fear of retribution for our actions. If we believe something to be right, we need not cease action to avoid future retribution. If we acted this way, I'd stop driving a car, as driving obviously can lead to death. Hence the Americans who continued to fly following the attacks. I obviously think we should have some level of caution, especially in foreign policy, but we should absolutely refuse to cower to the terrorists who threaten us. If we allow them to dictate our actions, they have usurped our freedom.

RACooper · #20 09-07-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This absolutely DOES 'blame' America.

If, upon reflection, "something should be done differently" this means that the past actions had a flaw in them. This flaw would then be your 'causal' relationship - and, just as in your psych experiments, causation = responsibility = fault = blame.

This is why I think most Canadians, as it turns out, "blame" America for 9/11...

Now as for whether America "deserved" to be attacked - I think that the vast majority of Canadians would state that America didn't deserve to be attacked. Nor did 3000 civilians deserve to die (not the 5000 stated earlier) because of American policy. Saying America deserved it, and blaming American policy for it are two different animals all together.

macallan25 · #21 09-07-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kstar

While I don't agree with the Columbine shootings, I do think the kids brought it on themselves, just as the US brought most terrorist attacks upon ourselves.

Editted to add: It's just like an animal, there is only so much abuse it can take before it turns around and attacks.

Oh. my. God.

PiKA2001 · #22 09-07-2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

This is why I think most Canadians, as it turns out, "blame" America for 9/11...

Do you also "blame" women who get raped because they were wearing a short skirt to the bar. It was their own actions that brought the rape upon them, correct?

texas*princess · #23 09-07-2006, 08:27 PM

A close friend of mine just got back from Deployment #3 to Iraq and he's shared a lot of his observations from being there for so long. I also had a friend who has spent most of his military career in Afgahnistan (so sorry.. I know I spelled that wrong

)

He said it is a very depressing place to be and couldn't imagine living in some of the conditions that he has seen there.

Despite all of the money and other non-monetary support that the U.S. gives to other countries, I don't think it will ever be enough in the eyes of others.

Many of our people live at or below poverty levels, but that isn't neccessarily the view of some people overseas. They think all Americans are arrogant, snobby, wealthy people when in actuality only a handful are really living that care-free life and many children over there are groomed to hate Americans because we supposedly have it all.

Did we "have it all" when Katrina hit and devastated that part of the U.S.? No. At that point other countries came to our aid. Even a year later they aren't recovered from that.

But it's things like that that they just don't see. Heck, they probably had a party when that happened for all we know.

To say that it's our fault is really messed up. That's like trying to solve a complex algebra equation without knowing what all the variables are.

Scandia · #24 09-07-2006, 08:47 PM

How typical- blaming the victim.

NOTHING can justify the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

KillarneyRose · #25 09-07-2006, 09:37 PM

As far as our foreign policy (or anything else, for that matter): No matter what we do, SOMEONE is going to be pissed off. That someone may or may not be a crazy, homicidal mofo or mofos.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell :shrug:

AGDee · #26 09-07-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillarneyRose

As far as our foreign policy (or anything else, for that matter): No matter what we do, SOMEONE is going to be pissed off. That someone may or may not be a crazy, homicidal mofo or mofos.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell :shrug:

Precisely what I was about to post. We cannot please everybody and there are extremists of every belief, so there is no way to be totally "safe" from being attacked.

RACooper · #27 09-07-2006, 10:39 PM

Now, we have all been dancing around or talking about the Who, the What, and the Where... the Who being the Canadians, the What being holding the US to blame for 9/11, and the Where well Canada again but a bit divided by province...

Anyways, I figured being the academics we are (well some of us) some discussion would centre on the How and the Why? Or Why do Canadians believe this? and How did they come to believe this?

Given that our cultures and societies have alot more in common than different, why is there such a fundamental difference? Is it simply a product of anti-Americanism? or rather a gross misunderstanding of world politics and reality? or is it difference in national ideologies? or have recent events coloured the past?

shinerbock · #28 09-07-2006, 11:03 PM

I think it is probably a dislike for many things American, including the harsh nature of American policy. I don't think Canada understands what it is like to be a super power, especially to be the only one.

Drolefille · #29 09-08-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Do you also "blame" women who get raped because they were wearing a short skirt to the bar. It was their own actions that brought the rape upon them, correct?

NO

But we encourage women to change their behavior. Stay with a group. Don't leave your drink, etc.

KSig RC · #30 09-08-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But we encourage women to change their behavior. Stay with a group. Don't leave your drink, etc.

I don't think this is even remotely similar to changing things like "foreign policy" and "operating procedure for dealing with extremist groups."

In the rape scenario, there are clear-cut, common sense, easy methods to help obviate (although not eliminate - that is an important distinction) the dangers.

In the foreign policy scenario, answers are never clear-cut, common sense is second to 'best interests'/long-term planning/idealogy of a nation, and the methods implemented are difficult, volitile and results are distant.

Let's put it this way: outside of some nebulous "US foreign policy", which actions EXACTLY lead to 9/11? Give specific examples. If you want to start with support for Israel, you've probably already lost any basis for further argument . . .