International Baccalaureate Program

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Rudey
Were you in the IB program honey?

-Rudey

No, I was in Advanced Placement. I graduated from high school when I was 16.

[alum]

KR, since I think you live in Anne Arundel, see if you can get the Washington Post articles, read them and then disregard everything. Jay Matthews is the education specialist for the Post and is gung-ho IB. He is also an advocate of anyone taking APs or IBs whether or not they really belong in the class, therefore a big fan of the Newsweek Challenge Index.

In Fairfax County (the 12th largest school system in the country so there are a lot of high schools), the IB curriculum was put at poorly performing schools with high ESOLs and F/R Lunch statistics. This was done as an effort to draw more motivated students from an AP hs with relatively high socieconomic indicators as compared to these schools, somewhat akin to magnet schools.

Unfortunately what has happened is that parents are regarding the IB as a lesser program because it was placed in the schools near the bottom of the FFX rankings. People are trying to pupil-place their kids OUT of an IB school into an AP school at a much higher rate than vice versa.

I also disagree with letting anyone take an AP class just based on their/their parents' desire. The classes cannot move at the necessary rapid pace of a college-equivalent course, because the teachers have to spend too much time reviewing. Many teachers are strongly opposed to this trend.

[KSUViolet06]

Alum, I don't know about other schools, but I know at mine, everyone couldn't take an AP course. They had to have taken a certain sequence of classes in the subject (and passed with B's or better) and have guidance counselor approval to get in. For example: For AP Calculus, you had to have taken Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus, and Calculus 1 before you could take AP.

I went to a school with both an IB program and AP options. I looked into both, and I chose to just take AP courses for a number of reasons:


*IB classes don't allow you to earn the college credit that AP courses do.

*IB courses aren't as widely recognized and highly regarded by universities as AP coursework is.

*IB courses aren't as representative of what college coursework is really like. Unlike AP, which is developled by The College Board to reflect as closely as posssible the workload of a college course.

*They also don't do the 5 credit A's that AP classes do. An A in an IB doesn't boost your GPA like an A in an AP class does. AP classes, if you're smart, can get your GPA ABOVE a 4.0 easily.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by JocelynC
Alum, I don't know about other schools, but I know at mine, everyone couldn't take an AP course. They had to have taken a certain sequence of classes in the subject (and passed with B's or better) and have guidance counselor approval to get in.

It was that way at my school, too. To take AP English, for example, you had to have taken Honors English I, II, and III or I suppose you could've gotten in if you had been in college-prep English but your counselor approved it but I never saw anyone do that.

*They also don't do the 5 credit A's that AP classes do. An A in an IB doesn't boost your GPA like an A in an AP class does. AP classes, if you're smart, can get your GPA ABOVE a 4.0 easily.

One of the primary reasons I don't like the AP program is this--these classes can sometimes end up making intelligent students feel dumb because they don't get A's...even if they deserve them. It all depends on who the teacher is. There was a guest professor who came to work with one of my graduate classes last semester, and she basically said the same thing. AP classes should be challenging, but not impossible...unfortunately, sometimes they are.

I don't know anything about the IB program, so I can't comment on that.

[FSUZeta]

my understanding is that it is the final test, from the ap headquarters, that is the bane of both the teachers and the students. many seem to think that it is designed to trip people up.

many of the most selective colleges do not give college credit for ap test scores lower than 5.

[alum]

Commentary on letting anyone take the class. Things have changed significantly in the last 5 years regarding who is eligible to take the AP/IB. Kids are encouraged to start taking APs in sophomore year of high school and to take as many as possible.

The link below is a debate on both sides of letting anyone in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr9.html

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by JocelynC


Alum, I don't know about other schools, but I know at mine, everyone couldn't take an AP course. They had to have taken a certain sequence of classes in the subject (and passed with B's or better) and have guidance counselor approval to get in. For example: For AP Calculus, you had to have taken Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus, and Calculus 1 before you could take AP.

I went to a school with both an IB program and AP options. I looked into both, and I chose to just take AP courses for a number of reasons:


*IB classes don't allow you to earn the college credit that AP courses do.

*IB courses aren't as widely recognized and highly regarded by universities as AP coursework is.

*IB courses aren't as representative of what college coursework is really like. Unlike AP, which is developled by The College Board to reflect as closely as posssible the workload of a college course.

*They also don't do the 5 credit A's that AP classes do. An A in an IB doesn't boost your GPA like an A in an AP class does. AP classes, if you're smart, can get your GPA ABOVE a 4.0 easily.

Thanks for the info - I'd never even heard of IB classes until this year, but I'm a big fan of the AP curriculum. I went through it my last two years of high school, and it was very good in getting ready for college.

I didn't realize that people were just put into the program in some places; for my school, you had to be recommended by your teacher from the previous year in the same subject (i.e., your sophomore history teacher had to recommend you for AP history).

[alphaxikt]

My AZD little sister did some IB classes in high school, but not a full IB diploma. She is one of the smartest people I know, and did VERY well in college. As a soon-to-be teacher, I feel like the IB program puts more emphasis on critical thinking and focuses less on teaching to the test (which is something AP is notorious for doing).

[KSig RC]

AP classes are the way to go, if you have the option, for many of the reasons noted here.

Also, the ability to select your own curriculum allows you flexibility in college - I had all of my prereqs done before I entered BU, and could have graduated in 2 years if I were a massive tool who didn't want to enjoy life (also changing my major would have been impossible).

The 'tiers' of AP recognition (I was a National Scholar) also look great on entrance resumes, even if you don't take a 'full load' every year. Additionally, it's not overly intense as a program, although individual classes are rigorous - there is little attrition from people taking one or two classes. The difficulty comes from the subject, not the course load.

ETA: "Teaching to the test" is an absolute joke - AP tests are comprehensive over a subject. To say that someone is 'teaching to the test' over critical thinking in a class like, say, European History is laughable at best. Now, practicing the AP's style (for instance, DBQs) could be considered "teaching to the test", but not in opposition to critical thinking (definite False Dilemma). Additionally, recent research has shown that practice tests reinforce understanding and retention far more than by rote studying . . . so yeah, bottom line, the "teaching to the test" argument is fallacious.

[adpiucf]

The best reason for AP: getting intro level college courses out of the way AND getting college credit that you don't have to pay $100s of dollars for.

[honeychile]

I think there's another good reason for taking AP courses: boredom. Some of the smartest students who take an easy course will get so bored that they never learn the material and end up losing out completely. There was an absolutely brilliant girl in my school who didn't want to take AP or college prep - and dropped out halfway through our junior year. And no, she wasn't pregnant - too many people saw her asking if they wanted fries with that!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by pixell
I didn't take many AP courses so my perception is only based on the few my school offered. For my classes, the teachers made a point to emphasize tricks you could use in essays to get higher scores, etc. I don't remember much, but I know there were certain sentence structures my AP English Language teacher would want us to use in pretty much every essay. I was horrible about paying attention in class so I can't remember what they were any more.
In my experience, the English (both language and literature) tests were much more "taught to the test" than history, math or computer science were.

So there are 'tricks' you can use to increase your score on the Lit/Lang tests . . . let's just think about this. If these 'tricks' become prevalent, wouldn't they cease to increase score? Remember there is no absolute scale . . .

Plus, that's two tests out of a few dozen? I just don't think you can defend the 'teaching to the test' concept here . . . it's clever jargon, and it sounds pretty, but it's an empty, utterly meaningless phrase.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by pixell
I didn't take many AP courses so my perception is only based on the few my school offered. For my classes, the teachers made a point to emphasize tricks you could use in essays to get higher scores, etc. I don't remember much, but I know there were certain sentence structures my AP English Language teacher would want us to use in pretty much every essay. I was horrible about paying attention in class so I can't remember what they were any more.
In my experience, the English (both language and literature) tests were much more "taught to the test" than history, math or computer science were.

I think many schools over emphasize the AP program. Yes, it's a good experience for students to prepare them for college but it's not the end of the world if students don't take them. My high school basically told students that they were out of luck regarding college admissions if they didn't take AP. I don't think the program did much more than keep me from being really bored in high school. The credits didn't really apply well for my program and all it did was get me out of the freshmen writing courses.

If I remember correctly, teaching to the AP test would have to cover every area of the subject, as the tests didn't center on any one topic or section. If you're covering every area, are you really short-changing the students?

I also don't think anyone on here is saying that AP classes/scores are the be-all, end-all. They do help out, though, when you get to school.

I have to concur with Rob and adpiucf on their points. The AP program can give you a real leg up going forward. It allowed me to add a major and a bunch of other classes, while still being done with requirements and the such in under 4 years. Even if your school won't accept the credits, that base knowledge will help out. Plus, if you do well enough, getting an award from the AP Scholar program looks great on a transcript.

[alum]

My hs sr is taking 6 APs this year in addition to one elective. The majority of her friends are also taking 5-6 this year, whatever it takes to get a college to admit you....

[macallan25]

I took maybe three AP classes in all of high school.....and was ahead in hours my senior year to the point that I only had to take two classes. I got into every school I applied to...Texas, UGA, Vanderbilt, SMU...among others. Whoever told you that you have to overload your kid with AP classes to get into an acceptable college in an idiot.