A serious problem. - Page 2

enigma_AKA · #16 02-22-2006, 04:34 PM

So, what do you think *we* can do to change the perception/reality of what is and what is not so-called love with such dramatic results? (Serious question)

I know people who felt as though, male and female, using a condom meant you didn't trust/love them really. Is that what love means, though? Obviously not. But then, if you don't have many or any example of love with precaution, then I suppose it would make sense to believe that is the true test.

I don't want to steer the discussion away from the OP, but I think that this self-portrait of *love* needs to be examined in light of our self image. How we view ourselves as mature and loving men and women is crucial.

enigma_AKA

Quote:

Originally posted by ladygreek
... because many times (if not most) the girl is led to believe that she is showing true love for her man.

AXEAM · #17 02-25-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ladygreek
AXEAM, I hear ya. All I am saying is that we need to quit putting the total burden on the Black woman/girl, because many times (if not most) the girl is led to believe that she is showing true love for her man. I think you and I agree on that point.

I think that if many of these girls grew up in a home w/ married parents the girl's father could teach and let her know how a man is suppose to treat her thus she would not crave that attention from a male and make bad choices in the process.

ladygreek · #18 02-25-2006, 01:47 PM

I have a question about the stats. Were there any stats saying what percent of the 69 percent ended up in a two-parent home, e.g., the mother and father eventually married, or the mother met someone else who she ended up marrying?

AXEAM · #19 02-26-2006, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ladygreek
I have a question about the stats. Were there any stats saying what percent of the 69 percent ended up in a two-parent home, e.g., the mother and father eventually married, or the mother met someone else who she ended up marrying?

That is a good question. I'll look into it and post the answer.

ladygreek · #20 02-26-2006, 05:15 PM

Thanks. I was thinking that the stats were probably based on the birth certificate and the situation of the mother at that time. That could explain why they are so high. I mean the mother and father could be planning to marry.

jubilance1922 · #21 02-26-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AXEAM
I think that if many of these girls grew up in a home w/ married parents the girl's father could teach and let her know how a man is suppose to treat her thus she would not crave that attention from a male and make bad choices in the process.

There are women who grow up in two parent homes, have great fathers who treat all the women in his life like queens, and they still end up making bad choices. Having a father at home is not a guarantee that someone will make good choices when it comes to their relationships.

AXEAM · #22 02-27-2006, 01:21 PM

L.G
I have not found a stat on that yet, I'm still looking.

Lady of Pearl · #23 03-01-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jubilance1922
There are women who grow up in two parent homes, have great fathers who treat all the women in his life like queens, and they still end up making bad choices. Having a father at home is not a guarantee that someone will make good choices when it comes to their relationships.

So true, it seems as if women need to be more selective in their criteria for romance, or we will continue to get these results, and our daughters must be taught to love themselves first, so they will not be subsceptible to making bad choices. LOL I've made a few myself-

but thank God I had the sense and his grace to do better! it is so sad to see how our men have nothing to do with their children and thus scar them psychologically for life, let's stop the madness!

AKA_Monet · #24 03-01-2006, 10:00 PM

Due to personal circumstances that I watched unfold before my very eyes, I had to rationalize what was going on for it all to make sense and this is as best that I can come up with...

For Ladygreek: I think what you are discussing is a difference in "generation"... For my generation, a teen girl that got pregnant and the guy ran out on her was the norm and the girl had to just deal... Then there are "plenty" of "stop gap" programs that taught girls that there are other options besides teenage pregnancies... Those really kicked into gear from the late 1980's and were well established by the mid-90's...

For Enigma_AKA: What you are discussing is the latest and current cultural trend (if you can call it that) of what young people say, do and think. And that is where we might have a discrepancy.

For AXEAM: The stats you quote are somewhat old. The number is higher than that. Most African American children born to unwed mothers are really not from teens, they are from women older than 21 years old. Some of them nearing 30 or later... And the number is like 80%.

It is called "marriage in reverse". A women wants a man so bad that she will have his baby and "thinks" (illogically) that he will marry her because of having the child... I have several "friends" that in fact did just that.

They were not teens who didn't know where babies came from or were unsure about there reproductive health... These are grown women that practically took an ovulation test to make sure they were going to "trap" the guy into marrying them...

Sometimes, it worked. Other times, and most of the time it did not. And if they married then found out they hated each other, they often got divorced--there in you have your divorce stat--like 50% or more... And yes, there are rare exceptions.

But I just asked a young lady who was a teen mom what she would say to her daughter when she became of "age", she told me she would make sure that her daughter did not "buy into" foolishness play game lines that guys who only want sex would say...

It is the "bedazzlement theory"...

But there is also the concept that a woman would have a man's child, but wouldn't marry the fool... That marriage is really hard and you'd have make it work, sacrifice. However, that thinking all changes after the baby is born--both events in life are equally difficult to do and there are sacrifices that are made anyway so you may as well do it with a partner that you love...

My husband vehemently believes that a couple absolutely should not marry just because of the child or pregnancy...

I think at a certain age that folks need to be responsible for their actions and use the theory of evolution by naturally selecting their mates and think before the get their groove on... Those concepts need discussion before you lie together. But I guess I live on Fantasy Island and most folks don't be thinking when it comes to sex...

ladygreek · #25 03-02-2006, 02:17 PM

^^^^ well said.

Bajan_Delta · #26 03-02-2006, 05:39 PM

Several comments made in this thread are valid however the main topic was about the percentage of minority babies born to unwed mothers. Someone made mention of the situation of the mother at the time, the stats do not examine how many of these women were "cohabitating" which is what I look at. Just because the mother isn't married does not mean that a person was not raised in a two parent home.

Now I can only speak about what I know and alot of what I know is limited to the people in the Caribbean community. A large number of my friends (myself included) were raised in 2 parent home (whether it is biological father or "step-father") where the parents just never bothered to get married. My mother would be considered a statistic but she was with my stepdad 16 years before they got married. I have a male cousin who was not married to the mother of his two daughters but to see a man this involved, making a strong but failed attempt to braid hair and sitting at a pink table drinking imaginary tea out of a tiny cup is touching. Alot of these men are not just weekend dads, but are fully involved. Unfortunately these men may be an exception to the rule but there are no stats about them.

AKA_Monet · #27 03-02-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajan_Delta
Several comments made in this thread are valid however the main topic was about the percentage of minority babies born to unwed mothers. Someone made mention of the situation of the mother at the time, the stats do not examine how many of these women were "cohabitating" which is what I look at. Just because the mother isn't married does not mean that a person was not raised in a two parent home.

Now I can only speak about what I know and alot of what I know is limited to the people in the Caribbean community. A large number of my friends (myself included) were raised in 2 parent home (whether it is biological father or "step-father") where the parents just never bothered to get married. My mother would be considered a statistic but she was with my stepdad 16 years before they got married. I have a male cousin who was not married to the mother of his two daughters but to see a man this involved, making a strong be fail attempt to braid hair and sitting at a pink table drinking tea out of a tiny cup is touching. Alot of these men are not just weekend dads, but are fully involved. Unfortunately these men may be an exception to the rule but there are no stats about them.

That's the other thing I forgot, too. In other countries, there is the issue of marriage cost. In the United States, "certain folks" can get married relatively easily--if they just make it to Las Vegas and get thru the drive-thru wedding and marriage license...

But it is my understanding that in other countries, marriage licensing is a whole 'nother process which involved a lot of cost associated with it, and that does not include the required tradition that MUST happen for a wedding.

I could see why most folks would not bother with having to undergo the bureaucracy to just get a marriage certificate and license for solemnization... Then get cursed out for having lay down tons of money for a ceremony... That's just crazy... Like in some countries a wedding ceremony is a week to a month... And that doesn't include the planning activities...

Bajan_Delta · #28 03-03-2006, 01:33 PM

Though this may be true in some countries, the process is not so complicated in my country. I believe that for some of those people it's just not that big a deal to have a piece of paper saying that you are husband and wife (again this is my opinion and observation). Many couples live many years together without making it official and are not looked down upon for it.

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
That's the other thing I forgot, too. In other countries, there is the issue of marriage cost. In the United States, "certain folks" can get married relatively easily--if they just make it to Las Vegas and get thru the drive-thru wedding and marriage license...

But it is my understanding that in other countries, marriage licensing is a whole 'nother process which involved a lot of cost associated with it, and that does not include the required tradition that MUST happen for a wedding.

I could see why most folks would not bother with having to undergo the bureaucracy to just get a marriage certificate and license for solemnization... Then get cursed out for having lay down tons of money for a ceremony... That's just crazy... Like in some countries a wedding ceremony is a week to a month... And that doesn't include the planning activities...

preciousjeni · #29 03-03-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
I could see why most folks would not bother with having to undergo the bureaucracy to just get a marriage certificate and license for solemnization... Then get cursed out for having lay down tons of money for a ceremony... That's just crazy... Like in some countries a wedding ceremony is a week to a month... And that doesn't include the planning activities...

In some countries, the families put a couple together - arranged marriage is quite widespread outside of the U.S. and I, for one, think it's a pretty good idea when I consider what biblical marriage is. Anyway, there is no ceremony at all, but the couple moves in together. The "wedding" lasts for two years. If the woman is not pregnant by the end of two years, the couple can decide to either separate (but they cannot marry anyone else) or stay together (which most people do). Only after the two year period does the community recognize the marriage. It is then that an extended celebration occurs. The celebration can last months depending on the wealth of either family.

But, from the jump, the couple is considered married!

preciousjeni · #30 03-03-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajan_Delta
Though this may be true in some countries, the process is not so complicated in my country. I believe that for some of those people it's just not that big a deal to have a piece of paper saying that you are husband and wife (again this is my opinion and observation). Many couples live many years together without making it official and are not looked down upon for it.

To my knowledge, this is also true in Haiti. I spoke to a few Haitian couples to find out why (not to be nosy, but as an exercise in expanding my own understanding - I was able to approach the couples speaking as a student doing research, as it was for a class assignment. People are very generous when they know you're trying to educate yourself!)

What I found was that it is extremely rare for a cohabiting couple to separate - mostly because the families become so intertwined - that cohabitation is seen as pre-marriage, leading to a definite marriage. I also found that it is looked down upon if the couple doesn't stay together.

This research was for a class I took in seminary about people and culture and how Christianity can be contextualized. What I determined was that all the cultures I look into required marriage, in some form - but that marriage certainly didn't always look like U.S. marriage.

Ok - here goes a slight hijack - Most Christians I'm in daily contact with are the most judgmental people I could imagine. When they take classes like the one I took, they can't reconcile their view of what Christianity should be with the truth of what Christianity is. When I look at cultures, where living together before a formal wedding is considered appropriate (even encouraged), I don't see raging sin. The reason is because I know that the commitment is there and I know that the culture has a way of dealing with couples who break that commitment. Difference doesn't mean sin!! /hijack