Baby Names

[Professor]

Do you ladies not have a reply for DoggyStyle82?

[SoloRHO]

Ohhhh, it looks like the gentlemen are seekng the insight of the ladies of Sigma Gamma Rho. LOL
Well, DoggyStyle, I don't consider it an invasion. I like when other Greeks come visit and share.

But anyway, I'm 'bout to pick your post apart!
You may be right about satiating the womans ego. (But, Im still VERY young, and may not be the best person to give an opinion on marriage and such.)
But you said a woman's name signifies that she is "A single, financially and emotionally stable, whole person, who does not need a man nor his name to validate her." THIS IS TRUE, and SHOULD NOT change after a woman is married (except for the single part). A woman, be she single or married, SHOULD be financially independent, emotionaly stable and a whole person. No woman should be completely dependant on her husband for these things. As a matter of fact, I'll even go to say that no marriage can work unles both parties are stable in these and other aspects of life. But I digress...
This union that you speak of, what is that union when it comes to money and emotion? 50/50---> with each person bringing the best there is?
Or more like 20/80---> with the woman depending on her husband for financial and emotional support. In essence, like you implied, the husband validating her.
THIS (second scenario) is sympotomatic (to steal your word for a minute ) of the state of some women after divorce. Take a look at the flip side:
Now, I could easily argue the flip side of your argument. What if a woman and man get TOO comfortable with the idea of that union? God forbid, things don't work out, or it becomes abusive, the man dies, etc... If a woman DOESN'T or HADN'T held on to her INDIVIDUALITY, when she is left alone she FEELS alone, out of control, useless, and hopeless, when divorce or the reaper come a knocking. AND she now feels as if she can't make it. Her husband validated her for so long, she's forgotten what it is to be an independent woman.

Now I know that everything I've said doesnt always happen that way. But doggystyle's argument that keeping a name is problematic isn't true all the time either.

Like I said, Im still young so I'm eager to hear all sides of this debate. I can walk into future relationships and marriage with a better undersanding of this scenario. Sorors, what do you think?

SoloRHO
PEACE: Proper Education Always Corrects Error

PS: DoggyStlye, you never know how things may "come accross" in these posts. I didn't mean this post to be an attack on you or your beliefs. Be out!

[This message has been edited by SoloRHO (edited October 27, 2000).]

[MIDWESTDIVA]

DoggyStyle,

I fail to see how hyphenating a surname is causing confusion in families or gender relations. Just because I want to keep my last name does not mean that I will love my future husband any less. Nor does it mean that I will try to be the head of our household. Maybe it really is an ego thing for me. However, there are many couples in the divorce courts today, where the woman did drop her last name and take her husband's. I really think it's an ego thing for men when they become upset about a woman wanting to hyphenate his last name onto hers.

Also, hyphenating last names is the norm in Latino culture. They tend to become very offended when people knock their naming system. I don't see that it has caused them to have any gender related problems. I'm not Latino, just something to think about.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
MIDWESTDIVA: are you really confused? Its non-traditional and the only real purpose that it serves is to satiate the ego of the woman. It is symptomatic of the state of gender relationships. Your name signifies that you are your own woman. A single, financially and emotionally stable, whole person, who does not need a man nor his name to validate her. That is the real ideology behind keeping ones name. When a man and woman marry, they become one entity, not two seperate whole ones thrown together. For a unified relationship to last it must be headed in the same direction and on the same page. To hyphenate your name suggests that some part of you wants to be your own person, indicating that you are empowering yourself above the goal and purpose of a union. When the unity candle is lit, what once was two becomes one, there is not a little hyphenated candle left lit in the corner. I know that hyphenated names are small and trivial, but it is symptomatic of the larger problems afflicting gender relationships. Everyone in my house will have the same name, parents, and siblings. It eliminates the confusion and energies can be combined and directed in its most powerful form: unified and with a common purpose. Sorry for invading ladies.

[This message has been edited by DoggyStyle82 (edited October 26, 2000).]

Interesting comments DoggyStyle82. These are some of the same comments that I heard from friends when I decided to continue to use my maiden name professionally and hypenate my name legally after I married almost 5 years ago.

I believe that 'leaving and cleaving' is something that truly happens in the heart. My decision has/had nothing to do with with ego or my desire to put my self/goals above our union.

But let's go back to one of your first statements. Hypenated last names are, as you put it, not traditional. Why is that? As Midwestdiva pointed out, in some cultures it is the norm for people to hypenate their last names and for children to take the name of the mother as well. My husband (who is a strong and secure Black man!) offered to hypenate his name as well so we would have the same last name. Would you have been willing to do this DoggyStyle82? What about the other fellas out there that may be silently reading? I told him it wasn't necessary, especially since I did not want our children to have hypenated last names.

Last point...you are right in that I was a single, emotionally and (somewhat) financially stable person before my husband and I married. So was he. I hope all people are before they permanantly join their soul with another. I was not, however, whole. You see, my Father made me especially to be my husband's help meet. We complete each other. There is no doubt in his mind, my mind or anyone's mind that is around us for more than 10 minutes that he is my husband and that I love and respect him dearly and look to him as the head of my household.

[DoggyStyle82]

MIDWESTDIVA, SOLORHO and ECLIPSE: maybe I did not make myself clear. It is not bad to be financially and emotionally independent. One should always be that. Nor should marriage or a man validate a woman. My point is that this attitude is not conducive to a good marriage on the whole(my name, my money, I can go anywhere, do what I want attitude). I am sincerely glad that it works for you Eclipse (truly) Whether a woman can stand on her own two feet should the marriage dissolve is secondary. As it is for a man. A woman keeping her name is an ego thing. I'm a traditionalist, don't go much for "new wave". I would never take a womans' name, but I wouldn't knock a man that would. I have no problem with a woman keeping her professional name either (just good business sense). However, in our home, all correspondence, introductions, invitations, will say Mr. and Mrs Same Last Name. If you still want to be Ms.Jones, you don't need me, so there is no need to bear "our" children, share "our" home, or "our" income. The Latin argument is specious, because that is another culture. American born Latinos have one last name, if married, it is the husbands.

[SoloRHO]

I can see that.
Besides, tradition is a good thing. For the record, IF I marry, I do plan to take my husbands name.

SoloRHO
PEACE: Proper Education Always Corrects Error

PS: On another topic (simalarly related) What do you all think of this:
An unwed couple has a baby. It's understood that the child will live with their mom. Do you think the child should take the mother's last name or father's last name? (I'm a product of this situation. And I got into a LONG, heated-- yet respectful-- debate with a good friend about this) I'd like to hear what some of you think before I give my opinion.

[BlueReign]

I have enjoyed these responses! I am one of those women who tried the hyphenated last name only because I thought of myself as independent and apart from my husband. After a few years I dropped my name and only use his. This was only because after some years of marriage I realized that it was not just "mine" or "yours" but "ours". Now I admit that I never really liked my maiden name as a child and am proud to have his.

As far as a child's last name of an unwed couple I think it is up to the couple to discuss what last name should be taken. If they are planning to get married, the child should take the father's name.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

I still think it is possible to have a hyphenated last name and have an our/we attitude with regards to the marriage. If a person puts their own goals before the goals of the marriage, then they are just selfish and possibly immature. Because a woman chooses to hyphenate her last name, does that automatically mean that she is selfish and immature? Of course not. Then the flip side of this is that there are selfish and immature husbands out there as well. Since men don't usually change their surnames when they marry, it is safe to assume that hyphenating a last name has little or nothing to do with being selfish or making your marriage secondary to self. And I also know many American born Latino women who hyphenate their last names. I work in a call center and I asked some of the bilingual representatives about it before I posted my first response. I like my last name as it is very unusual and there is a family reputation behind it. So therefore, I'm keeping it.

As far as my children are concerned, they will always have their father's last name. I have many southern friends that say traditionally, a woman's children should always have the same last name that she has, so if she is unmarried, the children will not have their father's last name. I don't necessarily agree with this, but to each his own.

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 29, 2000).]

[Dewgirl]

I just so happened to stumble upon this topic and found it very interesting, so I thought I'd add my say.

As far as long/unusual names go, I have one, but I'm proud of it, since it has significance, and like Eclipse, it drives me crazy when people pick and choose which parts they want to call me. I have my first and middle names, then my grandmother's maiden name, because there are no men in the family to carry that name down any farther, and finally, my father's last name.

As far as weddings go, I intend to take my husband's last name when I marry. To me, an important part of marriage my father giving me to my husband. In this transaction it only seems right to put away my father's name and take my husband's. But to each their own..I realize that the way I was brought up is considered very old-fashioned.

P.S. well, there's all that I said above, and also the fact that if I were to marry my current boyfriend and hyphenate my name, I would become
Ginger Anne Wright Gerondale-Novakoski
and that is just a mouthful!!!

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
MIDWESTDIVA, SOLORHO and ECLIPSE: maybe I did not make myself clear. It is not bad to be financially and emotionally independent. One should always be that. Nor should marriage or a man validate a woman. My point is that this attitude is not conducive to a good marriage on the whole(my name, my money, I can go anywhere, do what I want attitude). I am sincerely glad that it works for you Eclipse (truly) Whether a woman can stand on her own two feet should the marriage dissolve is secondary. As it is for a man. A woman keeping her name is an ego thing. I'm a traditionalist, don't go much for "new wave". I would never take a womans' name, but I wouldn't knock a man that would. I have no problem with a woman keeping her professional name either (just good business sense). However, in our home, all correspondence, introductions, invitations, will say Mr. and Mrs Same Last Name. If you still want to be Ms.Jones, you don't need me, so there is no need to bear "our" children, share "our" home, or "our" income. The Latin argument is specious, because that is another culture. American born Latinos have one last name, if married, it is the husbands.

DoggyStyle82, I think you are making an assumption that a woman's desire to keep her maiden name is indicitive of an 'attitude' of my name, my money, etc. I think it is important to realize that each person's reasons for making this 'nontraditional' choice is different. As a man, no one has, nor probably ever will, ask you to change your name, which as been a part of you since birth, to 'prove' that you committed to your family. As a matter of fact, this culture does not require men do a whole lot to prove that they are 'spoken for' (i.e. engagement rings for women, etc.).

[DoggyStyle82]

ECLIPSE: I'm not attacking anyones decision. I just have a strong opinion. This is America and individuals have the right to pursue happiness. If keeping your maiden name while married makes you happy, I'm all for it (seriously). I just don't like confusing the mailman. BTW, on the original topic, some of y'all picked some serious "Caucasian" names. Kaitlyn? Jacob?. Every other white kid in kindergarten has those names (along with Taylor, Brittany, Emily, ugh!!!). I don't like ghetto either, but I won't be calling lil' Buffy and Tyler in to wash up for dinner.

[Shelacious]

Good topic. I'll add my two cents if I may, Sister Sorors of SGRho. On names: my sweetie has a horrible name, and I can't figure for the life of me what his mother was thinking when she named him. It's either really pretentious, or really ghetto. My name is rather unusual, although most people really like it. I have no children, but I would like my girls to have the same initial as I. I haven't given much thought to the boys--maybe their father's first initial? (Never, ever his name, esp. not my sweetie's. )

On last names of married folk: I've thought about hyphenating my last name, because I fear I may be the only one to carry on my father's name, which is VERY important to me. I've thought about discussing whether my hubbie to be would be interested in hyphenating both our names. What I'm now leaning toward, I think, is to change my middle name to my maiden name (i.e. Hillary Rodham Clinton or my mother), and giving my children my maiden name as one of their middle names (maybe even one having it as a first name). I know this is has been commonly done for generations in situations where the woman's family name needs to stay as visible as her husband's name.


------------------
Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920

Hello Ladies of Sigma Gamma Rho,

If I may jump in. My best friend had a baby just a couple of months of ago and her main thing was to think of a name that wouldn't determine the race right off. She ended up choosing Malcolm, I guess to keep the initials of the baby's half-brother. But when I hear Malcolm, I think black. The names I have chosen for my children (if I am blessed to have any) would probably make people think black. Of course, I would have to discuss this with the father, but I don't think the names would be too hard to pronounce and I don't plan on giving them nicknames that may cause embarrassment later. (i.e. My 17 year-old, 6'3" cousin we still call Pookie)

On the other issue, I was discussing this very thing with my dad the other night. I told him that I've considered hyphenating my name also. My question to those that have a problem with women doing this is... "Why should the woman lose her identity or be made to feel that her family name/history is less important than the husband's."
If the mailman or anyone else gets confused, simply educate them.


[This message has been edited by c&c1913 (edited October 31, 2000).]

[MIDWESTDIVA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
I don't like ghetto either, but I won't be calling lil' Buffy and Tyler in to wash up for dinner.

LOL! I think it is interesting that men also think about their future children's names. I noticed that Profesor has some possible names picked out, and DoggyStyle82 has his preferences as well. I don't know why I never realized that men think about these things too.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
ECLIPSE: I'm not attacking anyones decision. I just have a strong opinion. This is America and individuals have the right to pursue happiness.

DoggyStyle, I never for once thought you were attacking me! I hope I did not come off defensive. I just like debating. I agree with you. If you and your wife are happy with your decision it is wonderful. Me and my best friend laugh all the time that there is NO way we could have married each other's husbands but we are both very happy!! To each his (or her) own