Why talk about hazing?

[starang21]

because i'm nosy and want to know about the processes of organizations that aren't mine.

[kddani]

Why talk about hazing? Did you miss the title of the forum "Risk Management and Hazing"????? And from the number posts and stories in this forum, hazing still takes place. Sweeping things under the rug doesn't make them go away

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by broomstick
maybe it's different elsewhere... but my chapter got in trouble because we woke up early during our initiation week and exercised on our lawn. it wasn't even hardcore exercising, it was like push ups and sit ups and there was at least one active member per pledge exercising too.

when you have blanket terms like: "'Hazing' refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate."

and: "Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution."

it's gone too far, if you ask me.

See, here's where I think you've got to stop thinking, "As long as WE don't think it's hazing" and start thinking "Does this even look like hazing?" If I drove past a fraternity house and saw pledges and actives exercising on the front lawn early in the morning, I would automatically assume they were hazing. Why do it on the front lawn? That's weird. If you want to exercise together as a group, go to the gym. Doing freakin' situps in front of your frat house has a connotation that you're NOT going to be able to shake off, no matter how innocent you insist these activities are. Not to mention that the "equal # of brothers to pledges" thing is a cop-out. If both brothers and pledges are beating each other with paddles, that still doesn't make it appropriate.

I don't see much of a problem with the hazing definition. There are still plenty of WORTHWHILE activities you can do as an organization and as a new member class that are not hazing. You've just got to change your mindset, like GPB said, what's the PURPOSE of your activities?

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally posted by kddani
Did you miss the title of the forum "Risk Management and Hazing"?????

That was kind of what I was thinking. If you want to see the other aspects of Greek Life, than go to the other forums and read about it............

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by amundson
Doesn't anyone have anyting to talk about better then fraternities and sororities getting sespended or expelled. I thought greek life was supposed to be something great.

Is there something wrong with this picture?

It is after all a Risk Management Thread.

Are there problems at Chapter levels, Yes. Unfortuneatly, it keeps happening.

So what do you profess?

Are you still listening or taking a cheep shot for a one time point?

As has been stated above, almost anything is hazing when it comes to not only Pledges, but Actives. Usually the rule of thumb is if Actives are doing it with Pledges, then it is not hazing.

But, as hoosier said, they just happened to get up with the Crow of a Rooster and do push ups?

It is Hazing to make Pledges do study time.

Whoa Nellie, what is the idea of college? Graduate. It is also grades that keep Actives current and Pledges become Initiates.


I want every New Possible Member to make His Grades to become a Brother, and while a Brother to Graduate.

I guess My idea is to simple!

[adpiucf]

Treat your members as actual adults. It's not that hard.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
See, here's where I think you've got to stop thinking, "As long as WE don't think it's hazing" and start thinking "Does this even look like hazing?" If I drove past a fraternity house and saw pledges and actives exercising on the front lawn early in the morning, I would automatically assume they were hazing. Why do it on the front lawn? That's weird. If you want to exercise together as a group, go to the gym. Doing freakin' situps in front of your frat house has a connotation that you're NOT going to be able to shake off, no matter how innocent you insist these activities are. Not to mention that the "equal # of brothers to pledges" thing is a cop-out. If both brothers and pledges are beating each other with paddles, that still doesn't make it appropriate.

For real.

Minnesota has a really nice gym. Not to mention the fact that you're going to get in much better shape at the rec than doing sit-ups on the front lawn. If the goal really is fitness, what's the point of jumping jacks on the frat house lawn? That's not going to get anyone in shape. So clearly the goal here isn't getting in shape -- so what is it?

[broomstick]

Originally posted by hoosier
You will never convince me - and apparently the authorities either - that your pledges got up early and did pushups in the front yard - voluntarily. It is just not believeable.

Believe it. Everything our pledges do is voluntarily. We do not coerce or make them feel coerced to do anything that they would not feel comfortable with doing. Heck, when I was a pledge, I offered to rake the front yard. Once I started doing it, other pledges joined in... voluntarily. If you can't believe it, perhaps you've never been exposed to the caliber of people that Alpha Delta Phi prides itself on.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by broomstick
Believe it. Everything our pledges do is voluntarily. We do not coerce or make them feel coerced to do anything that they would not feel comfortable with doing. Heck, when I was a pledge, I offered to rake the front yard. Once I started doing it, other pledges joined in... voluntarily. If you can't believe it, perhaps you've never been exposed to the caliber of people that Alpha Delta Phi prides itself on.

LMAO... you can't be serious. There are no words.

If you even bothered to read the thread, you'd see that the question is whether or not they were coerced, but whether or not it appears that they were coerced. One pledge in the front yard raking- not likely to be construed as hazing. 20 pledges doing situps in the front yard? Let's think about it. If you're not hazing, GRRRRRRRRRREAT. But put a little effort into the impression that you're giving, eh?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the high caliber of people that you think your fraternity attracts, dude.

PS. The word is "voluntary".

[broomstick]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
the question is (not) whether or not they were coerced, but whether or not it appears that they were coerced.

And that's where prejudice comes into play. Making a judgement without having all the facts. All FIVE of our pledges were having a great time; they were having fun. I guess no one saw the smiles on their faces or heard the laughter coming out of their mouths.

"'Hazing' refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate."

I know I feel humiliated, degraded and at risk of emotional and/or physical harm everytime I do a few jumping jacks and push ups. *sarcasm*

The point is, according to the above defenition of hazing (from stophazing.org), we weren't hazing. Our pledges did not feel as if they were being humiliated, degraded and/or at risk of emotional and/or physical harm. It didn't even look like hazing (do people smile, laugh and crack jokes while being hazed? I don't think so). But someone who didn't follow protocol, who gave into a prejudice, who didn't look at the whole picture, said "oh my gosh, they're hazing." The person who reported us for "hazing" didn't even do anything about it imediately, which (according to stophazing.org) would make them a "hazing enabler" and is just as "guilty" as we were.

When we went to our J-Board hearing, we said "Hey, we don't agree that we were hazing, even our pledges don't agree they were hazed, but we understand that you can't take even the slightest case of hazing lightly." So we offered a fair (IFC even agreed it was more than fair) punishment for ourselves and that we would attend a Hazing Education Class/Seminar just to go that extra step. IFC comended us for the matter in which we conducted ourselves, but unfortunately a week before this, IFC had passed a bylaw stating that probationary members (which we were, we were planning on applying for full membership this last spring) who plead guilty to any accusation (which we essentially did, even though we didn't agree with the accusastion that we were hazers) are automatically kicked out of IFC.

The person who reported us as hazing felt horrible about it. He said that he wished he hadn't done it. He had no intention of getting us kicked out of IFC, he just initially felt that what we were doing was hazing. He didn't look at the whole picture.

So in part, hazing is all about perception, and sometimes your perception can be wrong. Just make sure that if you think you see someone being haze (1) confront the situation right then and there and (2) make sure you're looking at the whole picture... (is there really a danger here? do people who aren't having a good time really laugh and smile that much?)

Don't jump to conclusions, and look at the whole picture.

EDIT: I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that this hazing policy is supposed to look out for the individual, but it has been turned into this focus on actions. And in my fraternity's case, someone saw just the action (as mild as it was), and didn't even look at the individual(s). It's a delicate balance between the two to be aware of that's important.

[broomstick]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
PS. The word is "voluntary".

Why'd you say that? Voluntarily is a word and I'm pretty sure I used it in it's correct context... if not the first time, defenitely the second.

As in... John voluntrarily gave old Ms. Cranket a hand with her yardwork.

But, I mean, if your going to make cheap comments like that, I could say "P.S. the period goes inside the quotation mark." But it's silly, I understood what you meant.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by amundson
Doesn't anyone have anyting to talk about better then fraternities and sororities getting sespended or expelled. I thought greek life was supposed to be something great.

Why not? It's a reality that we have to face wether we like it or not. Hazing has cost us dearly over the years. Our insurances have skyrocketed, we have lost potential members that could've contributed greatly to our organizations, and due to hazing, many university were forced to close down the Greek system.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by broomstick
And that's where prejudice comes into play. Making a judgement without having all the facts. All FIVE of our pledges were having a great time; they were having fun. I guess no one saw the smiles on their faces or heard the laughter coming out of their mouths.

"'Hazing' refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate."

I know I feel humiliated, degraded and at risk of emotional and/or physical harm everytime I do a few jumping jacks and push ups. *sarcasm*

The point is, according to the above defenition of hazing (from stophazing.org), we weren't hazing. Our pledges did not feel as if they were being humiliated, degraded and/or at risk of emotional and/or physical harm. It didn't even look like hazing (do people smile, laugh and crack jokes while being hazed? I don't think so). But someone who didn't follow protocol, who gave into a prejudice, who didn't look at the whole picture, said "oh my gosh, they're hazing." The person who reported us for "hazing" didn't even do anything about it imediately, which (according to stophazing.org) would make them a "hazing enabler" and is just as "guilty" as we were.

When we went to our J-Board hearing, we said "Hey, we don't agree that we were hazing, even our pledges don't agree they were hazed, but we understand that you can't take even the slightest case of hazing lightly." So we offered a fair (IFC even agreed it was more than fair) punishment for ourselves and that we would attend a Hazing Education Class/Seminar just to go that extra step. IFC comended us for the matter in which we conducted ourselves, but unfortunately a week before this, IFC had passed a bylaw stating that probationary members (which we were, we were planning on applying for full membership this last spring) who plead guilty to any accusation (which we essentially did, even though we didn't agree with the accusastion that we were hazers) are automatically kicked out of IFC.

The person who reported us as hazing felt horrible about it. He said that he wished he hadn't done it. He had no intention of getting us kicked out of IFC, he just initially felt that what we were doing was hazing. He didn't look at the whole picture.

So in part, hazing is all about perception, and sometimes your perception can be wrong. Just make sure that if you think you see someone being haze (1) confront the situation right then and there and (2) make sure you're looking at the whole picture... (is there really a danger here? do people who aren't having a good time really laugh and smile that much?)

Don't jump to conclusions, and look at the whole picture.

EDIT: I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that this hazing policy is supposed to look out for the individual, but it has been turned into this focus on actions. And in my fraternity's case, someone saw just the action (as mild as it was), and didn't even look at the individual(s). It's a delicate balance between the two to be aware of that's important.

I don't understand how you don't see how someone could easily interpret exercising on the front lawn as hazing. When you're driving by a fraternity house, you probably don't take a close look at faces to see whether they are laughing or look humiliated. But it just looks ODD, smiling, laughing, whatever. You still haven't explained to me the purpose of doing this instead of going to the gym.

Anyway, I'm not saying that you were hazing. So any further information about the definition of hazing is really irrelevant.

It sucks that your fraternity was kicked out of IFC for not hazing. And I understand your point about prejudice. But you were called out by someone IN THE GREEK SYSTEM who thought you were hazing. What do you think the average non-Greek student thought when they saw your brothers doing push-ups in the yard? What about your professors? Parents of potential students checking out the school? The chancellor? You have to take responsibility for the way things APPEAR, not the way things really are. This is grossly unfair, but it comes with the territory, for all of us, of belonging to secret organizations with a reputation for hazing.

And voluntary was the correct choice for your first sentence... sorry, I tend to get picky.

[whittleschmeg]

As a member of the womens soccer team I was forced to wake up and go on a 5 mile run at 6 am....then go back and do push-ups and sit-ups and up-downs etc. Before going to class everyday. Trust me I didn' sign up for that.

I understand that being part of a greek organization we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard but why do I need to work out inside instead of outside with some of my sisters infront of my house on a nice day. Being on a sports team is different I understand but why do we have to be not just 5% or 10% more carefull but 100% and 200% more carefull for the people who are ignorant to what they see.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by whittleschmeg
As a member of the womens soccer team I was forced to wake up and go on a 5 mile run at 6 am....then go back and do push-ups and sit-ups and up-downs etc. Before going to class everyday. Trust me I didn' sign up for that.

I understand that being part of a greek organization we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard but why do I need to work out inside instead of outside with some of my sisters infront of my house on a nice day. Being on a sports team is different I understand but why do we have to be not just 5% or 10% more carefull but 100% and 200% more carefull for the people who are ignorant to what they see.

Actually, you did sign up for that. Remember when you JOINED the women's soccer team? Athletic practice is almost a guarantee for an athletic activity. It is a requirement for membership. Although I've only participated in one ritual, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Greek organizations do not have a similar athletic requirement to be a member

And you don't HAVE to be 100% or 200% more careful (although I'm confused as to why you chose those percentages, exactly), you just have to think like a non-Greek.