Were You Hazed? Are you Being Hazed? This is the Place to Vent About Your Job

[unspokenone25]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AKA_Monet
[B]In graduate school--OH do they haze for Ph.D.'s...

Don't get me started on J.D.'s!!! I wish that I shove the Socratic method up some of these pompous professors' asses!


Oh, and don't get me started on what how of these professors' feel about having blacks in their classrooms (even though there may only be 3 out of 100 in the class!)!

[AKA2D '91]

I WISH these so and sos would get ORGANIZED!

[SummerChild]

Unspokenone, I'm sorry. I can't say that I had a bad experience with interviewing. Actually, I was annoyed b/c of the opposite. When I did the callbacks, I was there all of 15 minutes sometimes or met two attys then went to lunch with two others. The interviews were wholly unsubstantive and they wanted to basically just shoot the breeze and see if they liked me as a person. I was like ??? I was annoyed b/c I come from a technical background where the interviews are basically, get up on the dry erase board and show us your genius...or not while we shout questions at you and have you re-derive Green's theorem or show us how you would solve the research problem that we haven't been able to solve for 5 years now. Oddly enough, I got most of the lawfirm offers so I guess that it all worked out. Also, the firms that I went to 1L and 2L summers discouraged us from working on weekends and beyond 5. Heck, we were good if we could get a few assignments done each week for all of the time spent schmoozing and going to summer associate events. It was crazy and I actually got tired of having to go to all of those events. Now *that* was hazing b/c if you didn't go, you probably wouldn't get a job offer. *If* you want to go to a big firm, look for some big firms that are not crazy and don't have exceptionally high billable hour reqs. I would not go anywhere with 2000 or above. To give you an idea, if you take 3 weeks vacation a year and have 10 holidays off that the firm gives (which is the typical number given Memorial Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, etc.), 1900 billable hours is roughly 8.1 hours *billed (not worked)* per day (a rough estimate can be obtained by subtracting number of weeks in year from number off b/c of vacation, etc. and divide by 5 days in week). Add to the 8.1 hours your lunch time if you take it (b/c lunch is not billable in case you didn't know) and all of the time spent doing things not billable (which will vary by firm but most things done for a client are billable). Now if you want to do ***litigation**** at a big firm, that's another matter and wholly on you. Know what you're getting into before you sign up. Understand that you will likely far exceed the minimum each year. Most litigators (at reasonable firms not the crazy firms) that I know bill at least 2000 hours per year and some bill 2100 regularly. Do you like blackberries and being virtually tethered at the hip to work all the time b/c someone will ask for something at the last minute that always has to be submitted to the court TOMORROW. I'm exaggerating a bit but transactional work is much more predictable. However, if you just have to litigate, go for it (or think of litigating in other, albeit less financially appealing arenas like a public office - public defender or attorney general, etc.).

In Chicago, 1950 is the average bill hour req for large lawfirms but at a few (which will remain nameless) it is no holds barred, how high can you go. You can find the *minimum* on www. nalp.org. But you have to ask around about how many attys *actually* work. for some firms, the min is deceiving - beware of firms with no minimum, the number of hours worked is usually not cute.

At any rate, no matter what firm you go to, you will be hazed as a first year and basically as you ascend the ranks, you will have less people above you to haze you but the partners will haze all the same. Heck, some junior partners get hazed. LOL

Don't let it worry you too much.

SC

Originally posted by unspokenone25
If there is anyone out there that is the legal field, law student, lawyer, I think that may be able to relate to this topic. As a law student, you have to do research on the firms that you are interested before you interview. If you are lucky to be selected for an interview, you then have to be concerned about getting a "call back" interview. At "call back" interview, you are there anywhere between 4-6 hours at a law firm meeting with different attorneys in firm (BTW, these are just for big law firms). This is all for the sole purpose of attys seeing if they can deal with working with someone, letting them handle cases, etc.

Now, if a law student is lucky to be hired for a clerkship, then the clerkship is truly the "pledging" and/or "hazing" period. Some clerks work seven days a week and 12-15 hour days.

And then at the end of the day, after all of this over, you may still not even get the job.

[SummerChild]

Yes the Socratic method can be used to haze. It can be quite comical when it's not you who's being put through it. Are you a 1L? By 2L (and definitely) 3L year we couldn't care less about a prof calling on us...whether we had read or not. We went with the flow. At 2L and 3L level, most don't even bother asking about the facts so as long as you have an understanding generally, you can go with the flow in answering. Heck at my school it probably didn't matter whether you had read the case or not b/c the question never had anything to do with what was in front of you in the book. It was usually pretty abstract and high-level.

ETA: Not encouraging triflingness or the non-pursuit of academic success. Our grades still came out ok. I think that we had just mastered starting with the end in mind...the final is all that matters. Once you realize that, it's over. Heck, I would pull the old finals and old outlines the first day of class sometimes and spend my whole semester reading and/or reviewing with the final in mind (instead of the other way around). But yes, I said all of the time that 1L year was nothing but a haze. Stay strong.

SC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by unspokenone25
[B]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
In graduate school--OH do they haze for Ph.D.'s...

Don't get me started on J.D.'s!!! I wish that I shove the Socratic method up some of these pompous professors' asses!


Oh, and don't get me started on what how of these professors' feel about having blacks in their classrooms (even though there may only be 3 out of 100 in the class!)!

[unspokenone25]

Actually I am going into my third year of law school. Yeah at the beginning of last semester (2L) year, I had gotten past all of the B.S. the professors were trying to pull by intimidating the students. Hell, I rarely read cases anymore (can I say outlines and supplements!!)!

Luckily, the firm that I am clerking with has 1900 billable hours. I am going back and forth between transactional and litigation. Why? I have no idea which speciality I want to go into. I like the research and writing aspect of law and I also like to argue (I'm on moot court). But I just hear so many horror stories from some of my friends working at the big law firms. Yeah there are a lot of social activities but I have also heard of clerks going right back to work right after those events.

Hazing doesn't stop after you join the firm???? Ay que lastimo! Even after as a junior partner?!

Question: Do you feel that black lawyers get more hazed than others or is it an equal opportunity hazing?

Thanks for advice--you are definitely giving me somethings to think about!

[unspokenone25]

Summer Child: You would think that professors would be past doing the Socratic method to 2Ls but no such thing...my Trust and Wills professor expected us to know the case (facts, black letter law, even dissenting and concurring opinions) and wanted us to STAND UP!!! And do you believe that this b***ard didn't even care about the cases when he gave us the exam?!

[Kamryn]

Everything you all have said is so true! Being the new girl at work is not easy, especially if you're the new black girl. People are always testing our endurance.

I'm preparing to go to grad school and law school in the near future, and here I thought I was going through h*** as an undergrad! Shoot! I'm just getting started... I guess I better do as my professor says and "bite the bullet!"

[SummerChild]

Welcome Kamryn,
There are various levels of "biting the bullet" so I encourage you to evaluate grad schools and lawschools and evaluate the academic side of things as well as other factors that may be a part of your Big Picture life goals in choosing schools. The same applies for work. I say start with determining what your Big Picture life goals are (in next couple of years, 5 years and long-term), prioritize them and *then* choose. You always want to go to a place with a good name if you can (you will not believe how many doors it will open) but at the same time consider other things too. For example, when I chose grad schools, I wanted to be in Cali but I also wanted to go to a good school so I only applied to the really good grad programs in Cali (b/c it was more important for me to have a balanced life than to be in upstate NY somewhere battling the cold ... of course now I do just that in Chicago). When I applied to lawschool, it was important to me that I be able to have a life (at some point) while in lawschool so I knew that I would only apply to good schools that were in major cities or at least in places where I could have a life. I also knew that I was not going to want to have to take 100,000 in lawschool loans alone so I went to a school that offered me a scholarship. It just happened to be a good school too (which was a requirement for me b/c you pretty much work just as hard in *any* grad or lawschool program so you might as well go somewhere that is going to work for *you too* well into the future after graduation). When I chose a firm I knew that I wanted to be able to start a family w/in 5 years or so so I didn't choose a firm that would require me to work late hours and on the weekend b/c I knew that work being my all (which is what it would have been if I would have been working all night long b/c it is virtually impossible to start and cultivate a relationship that way - unless he works all of the time too ... at least that's my opinion) - anyway I would not have been happy. I still make the *same* salary as the folk billing in excess of 2000 hours per year but my billing req is lower and my firm is just as prestigious. So all that is to say that it will be difficult and you have to work hard no matter where you go but figure out what it is that you want out of life and find places (schools/work) that *also* allow you to work toward your *other* non-work goals (if you have any). I write "if you have any" b/c for some, it *is* their short-term and 5 year goal to basically go in, work, work, work and do whatever they think it will take to make partner and forsake other things for awhile ... and that is fine too b/c that is *his/her* plan and what is important for him/her. So it does not have to be as bad and all places are not created equal in all ways.

Good luck!

SC

Originally posted by Kamryn
Everything you all have said is so true! Being the new girl at work is not easy, especially if you're the new black girl. People are always testing our endurance.

I'm preparing to go to grad school and law school in the near future, and here I thought I was going through h*** as an undergrad! Shoot! I'm just getting started... I guess I better do as my professor says and "bite the bullet!"

[SummerChild]

Unspokenone25,
Girl, you must be extremely stressed b/c every post has some sort of profane word bleeped out. Relax. Don't let these folk get you all into a whirlwind of frustration.

Yes, professors can be crazy. But I say take it in stride. At least you are one of the last of the lawstudents who can say that you experienced the Socratic method b/c it *is* going away. It was rough on me but I appreciate the novelty of having had the experience now. It is one thing that has made lawschool fairly unique traditionally. Ha! He wanting dissenting and concurring opinions too? Well girl, that just makes your ability to synthesize a case and summarize it in one sentence (which may serve you when you start working if you're doing lit especially) that much more on point. In what area(s) of law do your interests lie? Don't feel pressed to choose btwn xsac and lit. B/c you are right that you don't really know. Try to do both at your firm this summer so that you will be able to say what you'd like to do full-time. Many firms let you do both and encourage it until you are about a third year associate. It depends on your practice area and whether the firm offers both sides of the practice.

Originally posted by unspokenone25
Summer Child: You would think that professors would be past doing the Socratic method to 2Ls but no such thing...my Trust and Wills professor expected us to know the case (facts, black letter law, even dissenting and concurring opinions) and wanted us to STAND UP!!! And do you believe that this b***ard didn't even care about the cases when he gave us the exam?!

[moe.ron]

I haze the interns.

[Kamryn]

I'm always opened to good advice, especially from those who are where I want to be one day. I'm a first generation college student and there was a lot about college that I didn't know. But with the help of people like you, who were willing to take the time to give good advice, I've found my way through undergrad, and I have faith that I'll find my way through grad school and law school. Thank you.

I'm definitely planning on having a balanced life during school and work. I have too many other interests not to. In the future, I also want to have a family and be able to spend "quality" time with them. I don't want work to be all of my life, only a part of it.

I don't understand how billing hours work. I was thinking that it may have something to do with working 40 hours per week, which averages out to be about 1,600 hours per month. Then you mentioned "billing in excess of 2000 hours per year. " Does this mean that in addition to your regular 40 hours per day, some firms require working an extra 2,000 hours of overtime a year?

[unspokenone25]

Hi SummerChild,

Thank you for the calming words. Yes, very stressed, partially due to the hazing I have incurred this past year and right now with my clerkship. **Taking a deep breath**

I truly appreciate the advice. I truly don't know what practice I want to specialize in. I have learned (from observing some of my fellow law classmates) that sometimes you don't have a choice in the matter of which area you want to practice.

I also concur with what you said to Kamryn. All of that has to be taken into context whether you are in grad school, medical school, or law school. For example, I know that in the next five years, I also want to start a family. I also don't want to work for a firm that will require me to work too late and on a lot of weekends. Luckily the firm that I am clerking for now is a family oriented firm and just as prestigious.

Again, SummerChild thanks for the advice. It is really hard to get advice from another lawyer outsides of the law school setting.

Originally posted by SummerChild
Unspokenone25,
Girl, you must be extremely stressed b/c every post has some sort of profane word bleeped out. Relax. Don't let these folk get you all into a whirlwind of frustration.

Yes, professors can be crazy. But I say take it in stride. At least you are one of the last of the lawstudents who can say that you experienced the Socratic method b/c it *is* going away. It was rough on me but I appreciate the novelty of having had the experience now. It is one thing that has made lawschool fairly unique traditionally. Ha! He wanting dissenting and concurring opinions too? Well girl, that just makes your ability to synthesize a case and summarize it in one sentence (which may serve you when you start working if you're doing lit especially) that much more on point. In what area(s) of law do your interests lie? Don't feel pressed to choose btwn xsac and lit. B/c you are right that you don't really know. Try to do both at your firm this summer so that you will be able to say what you'd like to do full-time. Many firms let you do both and encourage it until you are about a third year associate. It depends on your practice area and whether the firm offers both sides of the practice.

[Munchkin03]

My stupid MS program TRIED to haze...but I thought the work was busy work and not very hard. So, I did whatever I had to do to pass (the school is on pass/fail grading). I was not about to stay up 2 days in a row to basically repeat work I had done in undergrad. Some of my classmates did succumb to the pressure to stay up all the time and give up weekends and vacations.

My biggest piece of advice is to DEVELOP A LIFE OF YOUR OWN. Set aside times where you do not discuss school work, professors, or program politics. Spend time with people who aren't your classmates and who aren't involved in your field whatsoever. If you have to leave town for a few days to maintain your sanity--do it. A few semesters ago, I decided to make the weekends my own. I did all of the work during the week, and I would socialize, sleep, and just veg on the weekends. It provided for very stressful weeks, but it was worth it to have a life on the weekends. I see my classmates--even now, weeks after graduation--who didn't develop a life. I feel sorry for them.

[neosoul]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

My biggest piece of advice is to DEVELOP A LIFE OF YOUR OWN. Set aside times where you do not discuss school work, professors, or program politics.

tabernacle!

*side note: thanks to all the educated Black Women that posted, y'all are a RARITY in the world today*

[nonchalant]

I do feel as if I am being hazed. My supervisor sees great opportunities for me, so she has taken me under her wing to try to move me up in the company. She is constantly drilling me with information. She later plays mind games with me to see if I know my information. She constantly has me doing things that are outside of my job description such as facilitating classes. She's hit me before as well as other upper management when I did something out of line. She is basically trying to mold me into her perfect employee by any means necessary. There is always constant change in which I have to adapt to faster than others in her eyes. Our rules are being restructured. Mind you, my supervisor wants to be a delta, so I pick with her every chance I get. I told her what's up with all the changes in rules and sayings. Is this delta sigma theta? Are you trying to rewrite the book? All in all, I think it will be worth it in the end. I did get a better raise than most on the team. I'm still a work in progress. This is a long MIP.