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  #16  
Old 06-27-2001, 06:43 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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yeah, the memphis thang is still up in the air . . . hopefully i'll be able to pull it off, but there's some other stuff i gotta get out of the way first in terms of making lab work fit around being gone for a long weekend - i'll drop you a line though, again thanks for a response w/ personal feelings and experience, and devoid of rhetoric. Later,

Rob
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2001, 07:10 PM
KSigkid KSigkid is offline
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Brad,
First thanks for the info and the thoughts, glad to see someone feels the way you do - I was thinking about it, and maybe a message board such as this would be a good idea on the Kappa Sig website, and undergrad board. Put it under Brother Services, and give undergrads a chance to voice their opinions and thoughts in a forum a little less intimidating than the listserve. Also, alumni can see what the undergrads are thinking about and what the major issues are in their minds. Also, maybe the UAC should give updates to their districts after SEC meetings. We know the UAC is supposed to represent the undergrad perspective, but if they sent out updates via email/snail mail to chapters, explaining what went on at SEC meetings, it would allow undergrad chapters to be more "in the know" about what's going on. Just a couple ideas, drop me a line if you can; I'll be at Conclave, look forward to talking to you there.

AEKDB
Collin
Mu-Psi
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  #18  
Old 07-02-2001, 09:28 AM
Kapsig1 Kapsig1 is offline
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Both really good ideas Collin. This conclave will have "Commission Conferences" which represents a change. Each undergraduate delegate has already been assigned to a commission. The conferences will ideally bring good ideas like this, put action items behind them and prioritize for implementation. Any undegraduate "non-delegates" will be able to attend the conference of their choice - so, since you're going, GO to the communications one, and take these ideas with you. I would recommend you fully develop them for implementation (what your ideal looks like, with specifics) and then be ready to work with the other Brothers to iron it out.

See you in Memphis,
AEKDB
Brad


Quote:
Originally posted by KSigkid:
Brad,
First thanks for the info and the thoughts, glad to see someone feels the way you do - I was thinking about it, and maybe a message board such as this would be a good idea on the Kappa Sig website, and undergrad board. Put it under Brother Services, and give undergrads a chance to voice their opinions and thoughts in a forum a little less intimidating than the listserve. Also, alumni can see what the undergrads are thinking about and what the major issues are in their minds. Also, maybe the UAC should give updates to their districts after SEC meetings. We know the UAC is supposed to represent the undergrad perspective, but if they sent out updates via email/snail mail to chapters, explaining what went on at SEC meetings, it would allow undergrad chapters to be more "in the know" about what's going on. Just a couple ideas, drop me a line if you can; I'll be at Conclave, look forward to talking to you there.

AEKDB
Collin
Mu-Psi
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  #19  
Old 07-02-2001, 08:16 PM
KSigkid KSigkid is offline
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Brad,
One thing - I'm the Mu-Psi delegate, and I've already been placed on the By-Laws and Rules Review Committee - would I be able to switch over to the Communications Committee, or do I stay with the one I'm assigned to? Would there be a way to get my ideas out on the table, so to speak, if I can't go to the Communications Committee meeting? Thanks.

AEKDB
Collin - GS
Mu-Psi

------------------
If you ever get that feeling you can't go on, just remember the side it is that
you're on...you've got friends with you 'til the end. If you're ever in a tough
situation, we'll be there, no hesitation...Brotherhood's our rule we cannot
bend.
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2001, 09:48 AM
Kapsig1 Kapsig1 is offline
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Collin- find me ASAP when you get to Memphis and we'll negotiate a "trade" between the CBR chair (Adam Apatoff) and the Communications Chair (Phil Thames). I think your ideas need to be heard and developed, and if that's where you feel you'd be best utilized, we'll do our best to make it happen. I think I'm getting into Memphis on Wednesday - so look me up.

AEKDB
Brad

Quote:
Originally posted by KSigkid:
Brad,
One thing - I'm the Mu-Psi delegate, and I've already been placed on the By-Laws and Rules Review Committee - would I be able to switch over to the Communications Committee, or do I stay with the one I'm assigned to? Would there be a way to get my ideas out on the table, so to speak, if I can't go to the Communications Committee meeting? Thanks.

AEKDB
Collin - GS
Mu-Psi

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  #21  
Old 07-05-2001, 04:34 PM
James James is offline
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Hey Brad thank you for responding. ITs nice to see A National Officer (unpaid) responding intellegently to general concerns.

I want to keep the tone positive as I respond with some ideas, concerns, and suggestions so let me begin with writing that I believe that probably all the people passionately arguing on the listserv probably have the best of intentions in their involvement with Kappa Sigma.

I believe that beyond whatever value that they personally derive from being an alumni volunteer, most likely everyone has an idea of giving good service. In fact they probably want to give the best service they are capable of within the limitations they impose upon themselves involving their personal lives, employment, and the major one: experience and access to leadership information.

I also believe that they are probably nice people. Most people practice their entire lives creating a nice personality (personality as a method of communication). In fact I can say that everyone I have met in the fraternity has been kind of cool to hang out with within the limitations of my acquaintance with them.

What I find strange is that most people I have met don't differentiate between nice personality, good intentions, and knowledge and competence.

They are different. You can be very effective at task completion and not be nice or have good intentions towards others and you can be a virtual saint and not be able to find your ass with two hands a flashlight and an instructional video.

Somebody can be your best friend and not someone you would make VP of your company in a position that matters, and someone could be not pleasant and you would know that the job would definitely get done.

When people confuse these things it makes it more difficult to argue positions because it seems to imply that we are attacking the person rather than the action or concept.

Suggestion number 1: We should make a concerted effort to teach this differentiation and how to set up Criteria to evaluate decisions, ideas, performance and people as part of our overall leadership program. I'd be glad to write it up for everyone

What I believe we have been expressing here is our dissapointment with the character assassination we have seen on the listserv. It seems, and this mostly applies to the people against the sale of IMH, that when they are confronted with a point that is difficult to argue they fall back on the age old tried and true method of destroying the credibility of the messenger.

ITs a great tactic and it works. Destroy someone's repuation or cast doubts on their motives and you can destroy the validity of their message.

The people that are doing it unconsciously I tend to respect less: it just shows poor emotional control. But I have to feel a faint admiration for the people that set out to destroy the others person's standings within the Fraternity Community. Such a tenacious desire to win their point at any cost is noteworthy.

However, for those of us more removed from the problem it weakens the argument, especially if we don't tend to use that tactic ourselves. To us, the issue isn't whether this or that Brother is Satan's spawn, we are just trying to evaluate the point being made. And if the point is avoided and someone resorts to character attacks . . . it makes us wonder.

With Tau, we don't have access to what actually happened, but common sense tells us that certainly the whole chapter isn't likely to be evil. And when they are writing that they just want a fair process and many others are are just writing attacks on their character, it builds a certain degree of sympathy.

Although I do agree with you Brad, if you do it, own up to it, and live up to it.

I agree that the CBR doesn't provide for a strict process, but I am not sure it doesn't not provide for it. Documents such as the CBR tend to be and can't cover every situation. And usually the intent behind them is that we act with "good will". So just because the CBR doesn't have an explicit due process doesn't mean we couldn't have given one. Tau's request wasn't unreasonable and the attourney's present were Tau alumni . . . I know we don't like lawyers in general but we shouldn't discriminate against alumni just because they took up such an inherently evil occupation .

Also 40 eyewitnesses guarentee 40 DIFFERENT versions.

I don't want to beat the Tau horse to death because I, and probably no one posting here, is really a Tau partisan per se, but its easy to sympathize with a group that keeps getting blasted, especially when many of their arguments were at least on the surface, reasonable.

Also, it bothers me fundamentally to know that members of a fraternity might go in with the idea upfront that they might not be given a fair chance based on likes/dislikes and the negative portrayal of their actions, motives, and history. And the responses of many on the listserv has done nothing to dispell the idea that their assumption may have been correct: That the process may have been tampered with before they ever got to the hearing based on people's personal opinions. I think we are all enough students of human nature to know this happens. Leadership is about minimizing this . . .

Coming back full circle to intentions vs. competencies . . .


A first rule for alumni leaders, and once you interfere you are a leader in its most basic capacity: an agent for change . . . would be to do no harm. I have no problem with people messing up themselves, but its a crime to diminish the experience or educational value for others, especially when you volunteer for it. Unacceptable and inexcusable.

My next suggestion is more a holisitic approach: we need to stop pussyfooting around and complete the trend Greek Organizations seem to be heading towards, which is to design a Kappa Sigma all inclusive leadership program, that more than deals with just pledging, and goes beyond basic disjointed chapter operations.

I know we have BIA now, which is based on Sig Ep's Balanced Man, which is a much more mature version of SAE's LEading Edge program. I have both of those programs but haven't seen the completed BIA program . . . so haven't been able to evaluate it.

And the leadership needs to flow as much from the top down as anything, we need to develop and then train the alumni volunteers in it. There shoould be basic consistent Kappa Sigma LEadership responses to most situations and they should be based on sound theory . . .

I would love to enter a serious dialouge about this kind of stuff.

Got to cut this short bye for now.

Semper

James


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  #22  
Old 07-05-2001, 06:26 PM
Kapsig1 Kapsig1 is offline
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James - very lucid thoughts and I can't necissarily argue any of them. They are based on what I place as a fundamental truth in ALL interactions - "perception is reality."

Couldn't AGREE more with your "nice" vs "competent" point, and appreciate the maturity with which you perceive the flame artists - you're kinder than I.

I would add - you can be RIGHT and be ineffective. In other words, you can be exercising what you profess to be the "right thing" and not get crap for results because of your approach.

I feel your frustration on the Tau thing. However, the sabre rattling element of some chapter make me sick too. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some fine, upstanding young men in the group. In our case, we had ALL the leadership on capmus, great grades, etc. -We did everything "right," had awesome parties, rush etc, but we hazed like crazy - which we KNEW was wrong, and against policy/law etc. But we NEVER expected to be let off for the wrong, because we were otherwise good. I have not seen any evidence that the Tau undegrads are/have been willing to do the same. Know what I mean?

<<Also, it bothers me fundamentally to know that members of a fraternity might go in with the idea upfront that they might not be given a fair chance based on likes/dislikes and the negative portrayal of their actions, motives, and history.>>

Attorneys get paid to think that way

<<Leadership is about minimizing this . . .>>

Agreed


<<My next suggestion is more a holisitic approach: we need to stop pussyfooting around and complete the trend Greek Organizations seem to be heading towards, which is to design a Kappa Sigma all inclusive leadership program, that more than deals with just pledging, and goes beyond basic disjointed chapter operations.>>

It's interesting you mention this, because in an offline conversation with one of the Tau alums who has been very vocal on the listserve, this is PRECISELY what they don't want. And I kind of agree with both of you. The reality is (and Sig Ep acknowledges this) that an attempt to provide a single program solution to the vast diversity of chapter situations may indeed be "right" but not necessarily effective. Balanced Man, and BIA have been recevied with varying degrees of effectiveness. Doesn't mean we give up - by any means - means we have to work harder. I helped architect BIA, and I did so on sound principles I had used in a very diverse district. BIA is NOT like Balanced Man by design - it is instead designed to create effective, and incremental change in each unique chapter.

<<And the leadership needs to flow as much from the top down as anything, we need to develop and then train the alumni volunteers in it. There shoould be basic consistent Kappa Sigma LEadership responses to most situations and they should be based on sound theory . . . >>

This - to quote Marisa Tomei from "My Cousin Vinney" is "Dead on, balls accurate." Regardless of what BIA evolves into - the vols from top down HAVE to be engaged. We won't do BIA without DGM's/ADGM'/AA's, etc. PARTICIPATING. We have some that could implement today, but not many.

We have also chosen not to make the program MANDATORY. And I guess that comes from greater faith in our undergraduates to make decisions regarding their own chapters. Sometimes that faith gets us in trouble. It's an interesting balancing act between creating a learning environment and imposing the "General Fraternity's" will.

I don't have the all the answers - but like talking about it. We'll make progress that way.

AEKDB
Brad

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  #23  
Old 07-06-2001, 12:56 AM
James James is offline
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I would add - you can be RIGHT and be ineffective. In other words, you can be exercising what you profess to be the "right thing" and not get crap for results because of your approach.

I feel you there . . .sometimes the population you are dealing with just doesn;t WANT TO DO. And you could more correct than God and it wouldn't matter. ITs why we need to build failsafes for the important stuff into the system.


I'll answer the rest tomorrow

Semper

James
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  #24  
Old 10-16-2001, 06:49 PM
GPBGirl GPBGirl is offline
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Unhappy I know how Tau feels

Hi Gentlemen:

I am a Gamma Phi Beta married to a Kappa Sig. I attended UT Austin. I know how TAU feels, because we too got kicked off campus after I graduated. I am so disappointed that I spent all that time and money and have nothing to show for it. I have no chapter at UT and there are few alums that will admit they are Gamma Phi's. The parties at UT were beyond compare, and what went on after the parties too! I remember the ATO's having all their pledges in the hospital because they smashed them with rotten eggs and they all got Staff infections. I remember crosses burned in the Jewish Frat yards during Kappa Alpha Old South. The PIKES had "Big John's Porter Party" .
Times have changed and I have gotten a little older. I still remember my wild days with great fondness, but I am not sure that my husband or I will recommend the Greek life for either my son or daughter. Believe me when I say that it was NOT just the Kappa Sigs that behaved badly. Sigma Nu killed two pledges with alcohol poisoning; that is much worse than destroying property.
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  #25  
Old 10-21-2001, 06:18 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Re: I know how Tau feels

Quote:
Originally posted by GPBGirl
Hi Gentlemen:

I am a Gamma Phi Beta married to a Kappa Sig. I attended UT Austin. I know how TAU feels, because we too got kicked off campus after I graduated. I am so disappointed that I spent all that time and money and have nothing to show for it. I have no chapter at UT and there are few alums that will admit they are Gamma Phi's. The parties at UT were beyond compare, and what went on after the parties too! I remember the ATO's having all their pledges in the hospital because they smashed them with rotten eggs and they all got Staff infections. I remember crosses burned in the Jewish Frat yards during Kappa Alpha Old South. The PIKES had "Big John's Porter Party" .
Times have changed and I have gotten a little older. I still remember my wild days with great fondness, but I am not sure that my husband or I will recommend the Greek life for either my son or daughter. Believe me when I say that it was NOT just the Kappa Sigs that behaved badly. Sigma Nu killed two pledges with alcohol poisoning; that is much worse than destroying property.
The unfortunate part of this is that, ideally, as a national organization, we could tailor our responses to the situation at a particular campus . . .

. . . however this is impossible, and horribly ineffective from a leadership standpoint.

I am fully of the belief that any chapter at a school like UT that walks the 'straight and narrow' according to national policy (from any GLO, not just ours) will have severe difficulties. In that environment, there is a decided advantage to houses that can go nuts, and there is a general desire among rushees to join houses that support fraternal stereotypes, regardless of if they 'should'.

However, I totally understand how leadership can say that there's no way to turn a blind eye on behavior, and that environmental concerns don't lessen the impact (ie "everyone else is doing it!" won't hold up . . . ). The situation here in the Northeast is not at all similar to the situation at UT-Austin, but I can see why the SEC would need to view each as the same in terms of judicial action.

Frustrating situation - this is a school where I would LOVE to have a strong presence, but I'm not sure it will ever happen again. The "Good Ol' Boy" network apparently extends to certain houses, but not to others, in these situations - I just don't know if it's right, or wrong.
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