School Vouchers

[Kevin]

It's not really fair to doom some kids to an inferior education based upon where they live and their parents lack of income. I'd rather that administrators and teachers be held accountable for the state of their schools though. I could see myself supporting this measure if it was used only after a vast variety of other options had been exhausted.

My girlfriend teaches band in a public school -- many of her kids are urban poor on social programs, etc. Although they get some of what many would call the "worst" kids, as a public school they do a decent job. If the kids try to succeed, they can. If not, they don't. She gave a pretty scary statistic to me (if it's true) the other day when she said that 35% of her kids in mid-high are the major decision makers of their family -- they don't respond well to being told to shut up and sit down in class when they're the ones buying groceries and paying their parents' bills.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
However, school vouchers also create a problem where funding for bad schools would be drained and parents who care would flee.

I see this as a good thing. Bad schools should be put out of business.

The only problem with vouchers, as I see it, is when only a nominal ammount is offered, like $500. This does benefit the rich only. When vouchers are offered that are equal to what public schools spend per child ($12,000 in NYC) then children will be able to escape the incompetence of so many public schools, and finally get a decent education.

The US spends more money per child on education than at any time in its history, and the results are not very good. Pouring more money into public education is just throwing good money at bad.

As someone who is pro-choice about everything, I can only hope that the public school system follows the same fate as the Berlin Wall.

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I see this as a good thing. Bad schools should be put out of business.

all you'll then have is overcrowding of good schools. schools will get overcrowded and might not have the resources or space to expand.


parents DO have a choice where they send their kids to school. they have to choose a home in a decent district. obviously not everyone has money and can't buy a home, even in a lower priced neighborhood. that's why "bad" schools have to be improved, not closed. solve the problem, don't put a band-aid on it.

Well i think i would say i am for it. I would want my child to get more out of school especially in a more advanced school than a local elem school that severely lacks things. that was my promise i made to my son when he was born. With schools being so overly crowded i would rather put him into a facility that expands and excels than those who are lacking the tools to really teach our youth. Granted the money goes into our local schools but by the time the political red tape is cut and dug through our children are not benetting from them

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
As someone who is pro-choice about everything, I can only hope that the public school system follows the same fate as the Berlin Wall.

So basically school vouchers are a way to create a two-tier education system? Or should the education system be entirely privitized?

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by kappaloo
So basically school vouchers are a way to create a two-tier education system? Or should the education system be entirely privitized?

Create a two-tier education system? It is multi-tiered under the status quo. Nice try.

Full vouchers will narrow the gap, especially for economically disadvantaged children who are currently held hostage by the incompetence of the public school system monopoly (it is a monopoly for the poor, because there is no widely available choice.)

Should the entire education system be privatized? Let the market place decide. Let parents have the right to choose where their children attend school.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by cash78mere
all you'll then have is overcrowding of good schools. schools will get overcrowded and might not have the resources or space to expand.

That's a specious argument because the supply of schools is not static. New private schools will open up to fill the demand far faster than a public school system can expand to fill growing enrollment.

parents DO have a choice where they send their kids to school. they have to choose a home in a decent district. obviously not everyone has money and can't buy a home, even in a lower priced neighborhood. that's why "bad" schools have to be improved, not closed. solve the problem, don't put a band-aid on it.

Only if the parents can afford to live in a district with good schools. The status quo hurts poor children more than anyone. Bad schools are money pits, and children should not have to suffer to placate a teachers union. They should absolutely be closed.

[Rudey]

I think the teacher's union should be abolished as it is a corrupt and disgusting system that places the needs of awful teachers over those of students.

-Rudey

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss

As someone who is pro-choice about everything, I can only hope that the public school system follows the same fate as the Berlin Wall.

Public schools should be improved as a whole. Not all of them are bad---I went to public schools from K-12 and thrived in college, even though I had the option of going to out-of-region boarding schools for high school. My parents made the choice to move to a district that sends 95% of its students to 4-year colleges. I made the choice to stay there, and I made the choice to apply to some of the best colleges in the nation, successfully.

Perhaps some districts and education systems need to be completely overhauled, but to say that the entire system should be toppled is ignorant at best.

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Create a two-tier education system? It is multi-tiered under the status quo. Nice try.

Actually, that's a question, not a jab. The city I grew up in was very one-tier so that's all I've known.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Perhaps some districts and education systems need to be completely overhauled, but to say that the entire system should be toppled is ignorant at best.

I used the Berlin Wall as a metaphor for public education, particularly in poor neighborhoods. Free choice would have the effect of toppling some of these districts, and that would be a good thing. Refusing to reflexively defend a status quo that has failed is anything but ignorant.

I also went to good high schools. I went to public school in the 10th grade at Brooklyn Tech. I went to a mid-tier Manhattan private school in the 11th and 12th grades at New Lincoln. That experience made me realize how much students at public schools are suffering. New Lincoln was really a much better educational environment than Brooklyn Tech, and Brooklyn Tech was, and is one of the best public high schools in New York.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I used the Berlin Wall as a metaphor for public education, particularly in poor neighborhoods. Free choice would have the effect of toppling some of these districts, and that would be a good thing. Refusing to reflexively defend a status quo that has failed is anything but ignorant.

I also went to good high schools. I went to public school in the 10th grade at Brooklyn Tech. I went to a mid-tier Manhattan private school in the 11th and 12th grades at New Lincoln. That experience made me realize how much students at public schools are suffering. New Lincoln was really a much better educational environment than Brooklyn Tech, and Brooklyn Tech was, and is one of the best public high schools in New York.

Oh shit you went to Tech?

And I don't think a private school is definitely a better experience than Tech was. In fact if I had to bet, I'd say Tech would beat most private schools. I had the opportunity to take 11 college classes, take classes at Columbia university, work on 2 large research projects with several universities all through Tech.

-Rudey

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I used the Berlin Wall as a metaphor for public education, particularly in poor neighborhoods.

Why can't the public schools in poor neighborhoods be fixed? Some cities have had a good experience in turning some inner-city schools into magnets.

Also, students at all public schools are not "suffering." If that was true, my high school's graduation rate from college would not be what it was. That might be true for some NYC schools. There are also some private schools that I would not send my child to at all.

Some people will choose to go to the school that's closer than their homes, or where their parents went--regardless of educational quality.

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by kappaloo
Actually, that's a question, not a jab. The city I grew up in was very one-tier so that's all I've known.

So does that mean that the percentage of students who, say, go to university, is roughly the same througout London? That is kind of different compared to Toronto. If you live in, say, Willowdale or the northern part of the old City of Toronto, you'll probably find a very high university entrance rate. Things might be different in other areas.

This is what I was told by an education professor:

Any public high school in the old City of Toronto that is a Collegiate Institute will historically have a very high university matriculation rate because that's what those schools prepare you for. They offer few General (now called Applied) stream courses. Then there are technical and commercial schools, which historically offered more general level courses. Any school that is called a "high school" (i.e. Leaside) or "secondary" is probably newer or had a name change (Northern Secondary used to be called Northern Technical). They offer a wider range of courses.

I do worry about public schools sometimes. Lately, there has been a building buzz in many of the older private schools. The kids are getting new gyms, equipment, classrooms, etc. Technology is increasing, and some schools require their students to carry laptops. But doesn't that further remove the difference between public and private?

[Pike1483]

some good points by everyone. What about this-- if there are no vouchers and parents choose to send their kids to private schools, I don't think those parents should have to pay the taxes for the public schools.