Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson

[moe.ron]

Yes OBL have complained about the Western culture. However, that complain have been about how it is corrupting the Islamic world. Al-Qaeda main concern has always been about the "Islamic world." All their attack has been againts those whom they think has harm the Islamic world. Their ultimate goal is to revert back to the Calipth form of system within the Islamic world.

Some have suggested that after they get done with that, then they will expand to forcefully convert other civilization into becomming Muslim. I don't know how accurate that theory is.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Yes OBL have complained about the Western culture. However, that complain have been about how it is corrupting the Islamic world. Al-Qaeda main concern has always been about the "Islamic world." All their attack has been againts those whom they think has harm the Islamic world. Their ultimate goal is to revert back to the Calipth form of system within the Islamic world.

Some have suggested that after they get done with that, then they will expand to forcefully convert other civilization into becomming Muslim. I don't know how accurate that theory is.

It wouldn't really be consistant with their beliefs to do that. Part of their critique of the US is that we are imperialist. If they try to start expanding their empire, they'll be inconsistant.

So far, they've been fairly consistant in keeping to the goals of their organization.

That being said, I think that they should be eradicated by whatever means necessary.

[swissmiss04]

They aren't trying to expand their empire (the Islamic world) just take back power from what they view as imperialist and colonial powers (the West). Instead of looking within and seeing their problems realistically, they blame the West. 50 years ago, this may have been a viable excuse, but there's no reason that they can't reform and bring about a better life for their people now.

I agree that eliminating the terrorist groups would be a good start, but I don't see that happening (completely) in my lifetime. There's always nuts every where you go.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by swissmiss04
They aren't trying to expand their empire (the Islamic world) just take back power from what they view as imperialist and colonial powers (the West). Instead of looking within and seeing their problems realistically, they blame the West. 50 years ago, this may have been a viable excuse, but there's no reason that they can't reform and bring about a better life for their people now.

I agree that eliminating the terrorist groups would be a good start, but I don't see that happening (completely) in my lifetime. There's always nuts every where you go.

Do you really believe that they don't want to expand their "empire?" They first need to get control of the Islamic world. If they did that, I believe that they would just keep going.

The ideology of Islam can be easily interpreted to support the militant expansion of the religion, and Al Qaeda is doesn't have to stretch their interpretation of Islam all that much to do just that.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by swissmiss04
When did he say that the MTV culture *wasn't* a reason? He is explaining their stance from a political point of view, not cultural. Everything lifesaver said was correct. It wasn't a comprehensive explanation of "Why OBL hates America" That would take volumes.

you're trying really hard to disagree with me...we just answered the question differently...and neither of us are incorrect..initially i responded to

Originally posted by lifesaver
I so fondly remember when Pat and Jerry said that 9/11 was the fault of us sinners; the ones whove had the abortions, homosexuals, adulterers

ANd my point was that OBL thinks the same thing. This is a GOD thing to him above all else. Do you know what an infidel is? it is An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam. One who has no religious beliefs.
One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle. Haven't you seen him in his infamous tapes call us this several times??


The sooner folks realize we're fighting in a Holy war..the sooner we'll see eye to eye. I'm glad Dubya does. ALthough he can't say it cause its not PC.

but i think you just want to be right LOL..so i'll just say it!
YOU"RE RIGHT!!

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
There's no one reason they hate us. There are several. Hope this clears that right up for you too.

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/m...modload&sid=83

The more extreme elements detest McDonald's for capturing the gastronomical enthusiasm of their children. They loath MTV for driving their teenagers toward the impure thoughts of sex and individualism and away from the thoughts of the Koran and Allah. They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ. They curse the U.S. military troops stationed in their countries for illuminating their impotency. They attack giant multinational corporations headquarted in the towers of New York for selling material dreams that impoverished Muslims cannot afford and that only end up manufacturing frustration.

http://www.probe.org/docs/rad-muslims.html
Osama Bin Ladin calls on Muslims to "obey God’s command to kill the Americans and plunder their possessions...to kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military...." He and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence and restore their version of Islam to the world.
He especially deplored clergy-sanctioned dances at church recreation halls. When the ministers lowered the lights, the dances became hot. Qutb’s PG description: “The dance is inflamed by the notes of the gramophone...the dance-hall becomes a whirl of heels and thighs, arms enfold hips, lips and breasts meet, and the air is full of lust." He cited the famous Kinsey Reports as evidence of American sexual debauchery.

http://www.ericchrist.com/weekly_mus...muse091601.htm
These radicals do not believe in freedom. The people subject to their rule are forced to abide by strict standards of dress and behavior. Deviants are brutally punished. News and events from the outside world are censored and filtered through the authorities, which then disseminate them to their people with a pro-Islam, anti-Western slant.

In short, they oppose and despise everything we Americans hold dear. They hate us for who we are. The only good American is a dead American.

NOW i sit and wait for someone to say that anyone can post anything to prove their point. My only point here is to show that the long narrative that lifesaver gave to dispute me is only one part of the equation. our troops could pull out, and they would still want us DEAD.

I won't argue with that? but I want to put somethign out there.


So the US support of Saudi Arabia would have nothing to do with Bin Laden's dislike of us? Al Queda was formed to get rid of the brutal Saudi government and would spread to help fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Remember Al Queda didn't pop up in the early 90s.

Bin Laden has also called for a end to Saddam's government in Iraq since Saddam follows a more secular form of government.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
I won't argue with that? but I want to put somethign out there.


So the US support of Saudi Arabia would have nothing to do with Bin Laden's dislike of us? Al Queda was formed to get rid of the brutal Saudi government and would spread to help fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Remember Al Queda didn't pop up in the early 90s.

Bin Laden has also called for a end to Saddam's government in Iraq since Saddam follows a more secular form of government.

People always attack the Saudi government over the factor that it's brutal. Who is exactly nicer or better that wants to step in??? The thing the Saudis should be attacked on is financing many of the outlets and people who are anti-American - many of the same ones who went on to join Al Qaeda. That is what they deserve a lashing for.

-Rudey

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
I won't argue with that? but I want to put somethign out there.


So the US support of Saudi Arabia would have nothing to do with Bin Laden's dislike of us? Al Queda was formed to get rid of the brutal Saudi government and would spread to help fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Remember Al Queda didn't pop up in the early 90s.

Bin Laden has also called for a end to Saddam's government in Iraq since Saddam follows a more secular form of government.

Even if we didn't support Saudi Arabia, and we shouldn't, Bin Laden would still have a beef with the US. He is looking for the erdication of all modernity, and the US, more than any nation, exports the cultural products of modernity.

Also, he is one of those people who looks at the Crusades, and still holds a grudge (he needs to take some Prozac and get over that) while conveniently ignoring similar behavior by Muslims in the past. He also does not see that he is a modern day "crusader," with all the negative connotations of the label.

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Even if we didn't support Saudi Arabia, and we shouldn't, Bin Laden would still have a beef with the US. He is looking for the erdication of all modernity, and the US, more than any nation, exports the cultural products of modernity.

Also, he is one of those people who looks at the Crusades, and still holds a grudge (he needs to take some Prozac and get over that) while conveniently ignoring similar behavior by Muslims in the past. He also does not see that he is a modern day "crusader," with all the negative connotations of the label.

How so Russ? If we didn't support Saudi Arabia, how could he still have beef with the US. His earlier actions (unless I'm wrong) never indicated that he had issues withthe US. Heck he actually helped us out by draining the Soviets in Afghanistan.


What behvaviors of Muslims is Bin Laden overlooking?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
How so Russ? If we didn't support Saudi Arabia, how could he still have beef with the US. His earlier actions (unless I'm wrong) never indicated that he had issues withthe US. Heck he actually helped us out by draining the Soviets in Afghanistan.


What behvaviors of Muslims is Bin Laden overlooking?

Because it doesn't end with Saudi Arabia. It's not as if once he steps over the border he doesn't care what goes on and what religion people are.

-Rudey

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by Rudey
People always attack the Saudi government over the factor that it's brutal. Who is exactly nicer or better that wants to step in??? The thing the Saudis should be attacked on is financing many of the outlets and people who are anti-American - many of the same ones who went on to join Al Qaeda. That is what they deserve a lashing for.

-Rudey

I agree with that 100 percent. This war on terror won't end unless that happens. But don't you find it funny that our government wont' even pursue that option?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
I agree with that 100 percent. This war on terror won't end unless that happens. But don't you find it funny that our government wont' even pursue that option?

No government has and no government will. Some might talk about it but they're not that stupid - Democrat, Republican, Socialist, whatever.

-Rudey

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by Rudey
Because it doesn't end with Saudi Arabia. It's not as if once he steps over the border he doesn't care what goes on and what religion people are.

-Rudey

That's for debate but since we're the situation that we're in now, it's a dead issue. As a muslim, he does not represent what I believe it and it's time he's caught and dealt with.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
That's for debate but since we're the situation that we're in now, it's a dead issue. As a muslim, he does not represent what I believe it and it's time he's caught and dealt with.

I'm talking about Al Qaeda and not all Muslims.

Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia. Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere. Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.

And hey I agree that he should be caught and dealt with and I don't understand how someone with diabetes that needs a dialysis machine is just able to walk around all over and hide but hey I'm sure it's not as easy as I think it is.

-Rudey

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by Rudey
I'm talking about Al Qaeda and not all Muslims.

Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia. Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere. Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.

And hey I agree that he should be caught and dealt with and I don't understand how someone with diabetes that needs a dialysis machine is just able to walk around all over and hide but hey I'm sure it's not as easy as I think it is.

-Rudey

We're here>><< on that last poing Rudey. It's crazy and I feel that we should've pour more man-power into capturing him first. With our technology, he'd should've been found a long time ago.