Badge Question

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by angelove
This is from the Arrow archives on the Pi Phi website - in a nutshell, it only addresses disposition of the badge upon the death of a member, not resignation:

A Reminder About Our Badge According to the Pi Beta Phi Constitution, Article XVIII, Section 2:
Collegiate members are expected to wear the Pi Beta Phi badge at all appropriate times.
Wearing of a replica of the I.C. badge is restricted to chapter presidents. The replica badge is the property of the chapter.
No member shall give, sell or lend a Pi Beta Phi badge to any person not a duly initiated member of the Fraternity.
The Pi Beta Phi badge shall be used only as a badge and shall not be used as a mounting on any piece of jewelry.
Upon the death of its owner, a badge may be buried with its owner, bequeathed to a member of the Fraternity or to a collegiate chapter or alumnae club to be used as an honor badge or sent to Headquarters for such disposition as directed by Grand Council.

dakareng can probably give us some good information - she's probably busy working (which is what I should be doing ...)

After these most recent posts, I'm changing my will to say that if I don't have any Pi Phi descendants my badge is going directly to HQ.

I have a serious question. If a member were to be cremated, if anyone knows, would the badge successfully melt with the rest?

[AlphaFrog]

Somehow I don't think their Nationals would really want their badge burnt. If a member wanted to be with her badge after cremation I suppose they could throw it in the urn with her ashes. Would the badge get hot enough to melt though? Probably not...and I bet most morges have rules about what they will/won't try and burn with the body, and I think metal would fall under a won't.

[imsohappythatiama]

Just an FYI on the cremation question:

Crematoriums do not cremate bodies with any clothing, jewelry, etc. on. If you send the body to the crematorium with any clothing, jewelry, or other personal property, the crematorium will remove those items before the body can enter the cremation bay, and will either return the items to the next-of-kin when the cremation is complete, or will dispose of the items accordingly (depending on the preferences the next-of-kin has specified on the legal documents the next-of-kin fills out ahead of time).

This is all because metal in the cremation bays can cause damage to the bays. That's why the crematoriums are so specific (almost frighteningly so) about what sorts of items are being burned with the body. The overarching policy is that ONLY the body is allowed to submitted to the cremation bay.

Sorry to be so morbid, but this is all in the way of saying that there is no way a person would be cremated with his/her badge. It simply wouldn't happen!

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by imsohappythatiama
Just an FYI on the cremation question:

Crematoriums do not cremate bodies with any clothing, jewelry, etc. on. If you send the body to the crematorium with any clothing, jewelry, or other personal property, the crematorium will remove those items before the body can enter the cremation bay, and will either return the items to the next-of-kin when the cremation is complete, or will dispose of the items accordingly (depending on the preferences the next-of-kin has specified on the legal documents the next-of-kin fills out ahead of time).

This is all because metal in the cremation bays can cause damage to the bays. That's why the crematoriums are so specific (almost frighteningly so) about what sorts of items are being burned with the body. The overarching policy is that ONLY the body is allowed to submitted to the cremation bay.

Sorry to be so morbid, but this is all in the way of saying that there is no way a person would be cremated with his/her badge. It simply wouldn't happen!

Oh wow! That completely answers my question.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Thanks for answering my questions.

What if a member resigned and was told that her badge (the standard badge) was to be returned and then a week later it pops up on ebay. Is there anyway to get that back? She was told to return any property and she failed to do so.

[dakareng]

I don't know the exact statistics, but I think most resignations occur during collegiate years (few alumnae do so, unless they are making some sort of protest statement). With that being the case, the simple way to ensure this doesn't happen is to not submit the paperwork until the badge is returned... the resignation is not official until the property is returned, therefore that person is still going to be billed. That may sound petty but so is selling your own badge on Ebay out of anger. Besides, since the standard badge is gold-filled not 14K, it only costs ~$10. Anyone who bids up a plan badge hasn't priced them (honestly though, that is my advice when bidding on any badge-- know how much that badge costs new and whether it is truly vintage before you bid)

To answer your question, Lady Pi Phi, no there isn't. Even though our policies require that property be returned, since individual members have purchased their badges, short of holding back the paperwork, there isn't anything you can do.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

Originally posted by arrowgirl
Well, a person may consider a topic "done" but if someone else hasn't had the opportunity to share their opinion and decides to share it, then it really isn't "done". So really, she can say whatever she wants. Whenever she wants. Regardless of what you think. Deal.

Calm it on down.

I can appreciate your wanting to defend a sister, but Karen's hardly being attacked -- she made an inadequately supported statement, and wptw pointed that out.


Karen: "... whether or not Pi Phis have a right to discuss our feelings about a heritage badge being sold at public auction... I think we Pi Phis DO have the right to discuss it in OUR forum..."

No one EVER said Pi Phis don't have the right to DISCUSS the selling of the badge. What was under discussion was (a) the right and/or appropriateness of any Greek hurling insults at a seller (in this case not even a sister) who refuses to donate an item, and (b) speculation on the value the badge may or may not have to the buyer.

I can certainly see where the selling/purchase of an IC badge would ruffle the feathers of a Pi Phi -- after all, I can only imagine the reaction of my Phi Mus if an old-school Philomathean badge was offered up!

But when it comes right down to it.... as a group of greeks, we haven't made the effort to protect the ownership of our badges legally, so there's really nothing we can do. I don't even know if it's rational to think there would be a way to keep every GLO badge off ebay, or if it might ever happen.

Maybe we should think, instead, about making the best of the situation we have.

I think it if were my sorority, I'd be glad we didn't spend the $5,000.00 to "rescue" the badge. That money alone could save a chapter from closing. That chapter could bring the bonds of sisterhood to MANY, MANY women -- far more than would ever actually see or touch the $5k badge.

You guys have a badge and a history that people consider valuable and honorable. People who don't even know what the badge stands for! Please realize that it's a HUGE accomplishment to have achieved such a reputation as a sorority, and fostering the kind of negative attitude towards others -- even collectors -- that I've seen on this board the last week or so does not promote that.

Pi Phi has a proud sisterhood and a lot of history. That's valuable. Even non-Pi Phis can see that! You guys' job is to protect that heritage and reputation -- NOT by "saving" badges, but by being the sophisticated, lively, educated ladies and friends your founders fought so hard to make of themselves.

I can understand why you'd want the badge. And if it was my call, I'd hand it over to you, because I think you have an ethical "right" to it. But there's no reason to lower yourselves to cat-fighting over it. The badge will be respected and cared for; the price makes that obvious. Enough is enough!

[dakareng]

We are trying to calm it down... as I began a response earlier... back to the original question.

This thread was started because a Pi Phi had a question about Pi Phi policy. That is what we are trying to do. I'm trying to answer a question that a non-Pi Phi is unlikely to know. As much as wptw wants to believe he is an expert on the subject of sorority badges (I don't dispute that he values and understands historical artifacts) or knows the ebay signon of every collector (how else does he know it was a Pi Phi who won it?), I doubt he knows our policies. That is not intended as a personal slam-- believe it or not, I do appreciate what he does.

We'll let it drop if y'all will, too.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

maybe he IS a member of a sorority

maybe "wptw" stands for "wilma paula tanya washington."

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
maybe he IS a member of a sorority

maybe "wptw" stands for "wilma paula tanya washington."

First we know he is not a member of a sorority. Because he's already claimed membership in a fraternity.

Secondly, this thread was not designed to bash anyone or to continue a thread that had been deleted. It was placed in the Pi Phi forum because I had a Pi Phi specific question. Quite frankly I didn't want a million an a half responses from members of other organizations when I knew they would not be able to answer my question. If I wanted a general answer I would have posted in greek like.

Also, despite some of our personal feelings about the badge and it's seller, they are our personal feelings. No one here ever demanded that our HQ spend $5k+ on a badge no matter how historically signifcant it is and how wonderful it would be if we could possess that. The idea of having HQ rescue the badge went out the window when the price reach $1000.

This thread was never about "THE badge".

Now, I would like to take this time to thank my sisters who have answered my questions.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

/catfight.

[breathesgelatin]

Oh boy. Sorry I wasn't around this weekend! I'll comment on a few things and then I'm locking this baby down. I think these topics can be discussed without drama, and I'll leave the thread around for reference. If there's still need for discussion about what Pi Phi policy exactly is, we can start a new thread about that. But there shouldn't be any need for anyone to slam anyone else. I think the issue has basically already cooled off, but since it seems that some people keep coming back to chat about it, it's getting a locky-locky.

As far as getting back badges from resigned members:

As President, I've understood that it's my duty to go to members and collect their badges and chapter materials and property in their possession when they resign. They give me the stuff, and I sign off on their resignation. There's been debate about this in my chapter before--I don't advocate snatching every Pi Phi tee-shirt that member has ever purchased, for example. That member has paid for them, and it's no different than a non-member who participated in a Pi Phi philanthropy wearing a t-shirt from that event. I do think it's a good idea to try to get back badges. I haven't dealt with a resignation yet (yay!) but if someone protested me trying to get their badge, I don't know exactly how I'd deal. Probably contact my AAC chair and CPP for the next step. Legally, I don't really think I could wrest the badge from her if she was willing to fight it that hard. I think in terms of PR it would be better just to let it go if she wanted it that badly. (Better a badge on ebay than an angry ex-Pi Phi badmouthing us on campus about being stingy/coldhearted, IMHO.) Although, I think in most cases the person doesn't really have a strong enough interest in Pi Phi to want to keep it that badly (that's why she's resigned, right?).

Again if we want to continue some discussion on ways of dealing with badges and ebay and stuff we can do that in a thread less tinged with drama.

For the record, I'm not incredibly concerned with people collecting our badges online. They're beautiful objects, and it's natural that non-members would want to collect them, even if they would never mean quite the same thing to a non-member. I'm going to italicize the next part.

Better a collector who appreciates what he or she feels Pi Phi stands for and cherishes the badge than a member who fails to live up to Pi Phi values, fails to contribute, and doesn't care what her badge means. Earnest collectors don't reflect poorly on Pi Phi. Members who ignore the values the badge stands for do.

Just to note, that was in no way meant to reflect on anyone on greekchat. Just something I've come to realize after being President and trying and trying to get through to sisters which things are really important.

Thanks for stopping by everyone.