Sigma Chi may make branding an expellable offense.

[Tom Earp]

Well, ZZ that is your right.

But, some of us know what the ramifications can be if something happens to the Almost Adult of age College Kids! Legally, yes morally, and true Adults, NO!

Now, where is your brand?

[kddani]

The parents are complaining because little innocent Johnnie NEVER would do such a thing on his own. Not their little angel! And heavens no, he doesn't binge drink, have sex, cheat on tests, curse or lie.

Parents want someone else to blame for their kids stupidity. being that the kids are in college, that's the time for some stupidity and body maiming.

If there's more evidence that it was forced upon him, then i'd be in favor of just say no. But it seems like a conscious choice.

Sigma Chi is just trying to cover their ass, and their insurance company's probably breathing down their neck.

While some may feel that if they're paying for their kid's expenses they ought to have a say in how he runs his body and his life, if the kid's 18 there's really nothing legal that can be done. It's great in theory, on some level I agree, but there's nothing to enforce that.

Be mad at your kid for making a bad choice.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by kddani
Be mad at your kid for making a bad choice.

Actually, you're generally sorry for your kid making a bad choice. Mad is only the immediate reaction.

Now, let's talk about the parent's Catch 22. So, we legally have no rights in telling "little Jonny (unisex)" what to do, but can still be named in a lawsuit if his/her chapter does something dumb -- or he/she her/himself get wasted and maim someone in a hazing incident or car accident.

Or, how about the university and In Loco Parentis? How is it that they can be sued if an over 18 student (or number thereof) are charged in a hazing incident?

I can keep my kids on my insurance until they're 21 or married as long as they live at home. I can claim them as an income tax deduction as a "dependent" if I pay their full support.

I think there really may be some gray area here. My suspicion is that those years between 18 and 21 are not so neatly wrapped up in the word "adult."

All of which has nothing whatsoever to do with Sigma Chi potential move -- but the parent issue was brought up early-on and is worth touching upon.

[cash78mere]

as someone said before, although this may be a "choice" i'm quite sure there's an element of peer pressure involved. if he didn't do it, he may not have been fully accepted. who knows.

personally i think branding is gross. it reminds me of cattle and slavery. people branded their slaves because they were considered property. branding holds a deeper meaning--ownership.

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

What next? Expelling guys that get tattoos? Or if they dye their hair blue?

If you do it of your own free will it's bod-mod not hazing.

Someone down there needs to get a stick out of their ass and realize that.

[ZZ-kai-]

Well said.

What it comes down to is the kids an adult, he can do what he chooses, no matter if his parents still cover him for insurance, pay his tuition or claim him on his taxes. All that is, is overbearing parents who like to impose their views and values onto their children - or have nothing better to bitch about.

I don't have a brand, I have Beta tattoos. My parents think they're cool. They love what Beta did for me and supported me all the way. Do they make the occasional 'cult' joke, yes, but they'll be the first ones to come to Beta golf outings and attend homecoming events with me and my wife.

Do I rule a Beta brand out? Nope. But I think a 'B' branded on my arm would look silly, unlike a Sigma, Omega, or a Psi which make people do a double-take.

All in all, he's an adult. People need to allow their children to grow up - stop trying to hinder them.

Originally posted by kddani
The parents are complaining because little innocent Johnnie NEVER would do such a thing on his own. Not their little angel! And heavens no, he doesn't binge drink, have sex, cheat on tests, curse or lie.

Parents want someone else to blame for their kids stupidity. being that the kids are in college, that's the time for some stupidity and body maiming.

If there's more evidence that it was forced upon him, then i'd be in favor of just say no. But it seems like a conscious choice.

Sigma Chi is just trying to cover their ass, and their insurance company's probably breathing down their neck.

While some may feel that if they're paying for their kid's expenses they ought to have a say in how he runs his body and his life, if the kid's 18 there's really nothing legal that can be done. It's great in theory, on some level I agree, but there's nothing to enforce that.

Be mad at your kid for making a bad choice.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
What next? Expelling guys that get tattoos? Or if they dye their hair blue?

If you do it of your own free will it's bod-mod not hazing.

Someone down there needs to get a stick out of their ass and realize that.

This has been discussed at length before. But I'll say it again. Hazing often creates situations where individuals will do things to be part of the group that they normally wouldn't do. Getting branded can potentially be one of those things. If I were accused of killing a candidate by making him drink an entire bottle of vodka, do you think an adequate defense would be that he actually swallowed the stuff and drank it on his own free will?

The line between what is and isn't hazing is very blurry, especially because of many of our HQ's somewhat ambiguous policies on the subject.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Branding should never be done by anyone other than a professional.
The risk managment issue in this is that it was done by members of the chapter and not by a professional.
If some of the guys were to go to professional this would be a non issue.
I have 4 tattoos. My parents were less than thrilled but they weren't about to sue the tattoo parlour over something I chose to do or the school for "not keeping a closer eye on me".
I made my choice and I will live with it. But I'm happy, I like my tattoos one of which is related to Pi Phi.

[DeltAlum]

This debate brings back to my mind a line from an old song, "But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Ah, if I were only as smart as I was way back when I was in college.

Frankly, while many don't necessarily want to admit it now, age does bring at least some wisdom. However, it also allows for some gray areas and, if you are really smart, the understanding that you might not really comprehend all the ramifications of certain situations.

The truth is that age 18 isn't the magic milestone it appears to be. You can't drink legally in the US until you're 21. You can't run for President until you're 35.

"The State" enforces mandatory seat belt laws for all ages. The same for drinking and driving. Does anyone want to make the argument that driving drunk is OK once you turn 18? How about hard drugs? Sometimes we have to be protected from ourselves.

In the final analysis, though, organizations (like Sigma Chi in this case) must decide for themselves what things are good for their own organization. Risk Management, whether something like branding is a real or imaginary problem, is high on that list.

As for the father complaining, would you object if he were complaining about the university raising its tuition? Or, if they weren't providing security services? Or, if the fraternity was demanding all of its members be branded?

What would you have said if this young man's brand had gotten infected and he ended up in the hospital -- or had to have the arm amputated?

The fact is that this father has every right to speak his mind -- just as you have every right to speak yours.

Oh, and by the way, parenting doesn't end when a "child" turns eighteen. Think about that the next time you need a parent to co-sign for a loan or an apartment.

Look, I'm not implying that college students shouldn't be moving toward independence. Nor am I saying that some of you aren't bright enough to be totally independent. But some of you aren't. Nor, frankly, are many adults.

It's just that you don't magically become all knowing at midnight of your 18th birthday. Sometimes it happens a week or two earlier or later...

[Lady Pi Phi]

I'm not saying the father doesn't have the right to be upset. Yeah I would be upset if my child came home with a brand that was given to them by their fraternity/sorority members. it's not so much the brand as it was the risk involved because it wasn't done by a professional. The parent doesn't have the right to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Did his son make a bad chocie, probably. IS it anyone elses fault. No. Unless he was hel down by his fraternity members and forced to take the brand (which it doesn't appear that that was the case) then it was the kids own fault and the father has no one else to get mad at but his son. There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your own actions and legally that age is 18.
You can enter into contracts, die for your country, rent porn, get married. Obviously there are some things that you can't do at 18 and I agree that sometimes we need to be protected from ourselves, but does that mean we are going to make body modification illegal because some people might make bad choices? You can legally get a tattoo at 18 and certain types of body modification (at least here you must be 18 to get a tattoo), if later you regret it, it's no one's fault but your own.

[Tom Earp]

HMM, In the meantime, an infection sets in.

The kid is taken to a hospital and found to have a rare problem and dies. It was related to branding so what then?

Do you really think that The Medical Profession is so good that they can save anyone out side of TV Drs of course.

Read some stats on people dieing in hospitals, it can and will happen and then we will all be sorry for the lose!

As the old saying goes, as long as you live under my roof and I pay for the bills, I will have every right to dictate the family poloicy!

Ta Da!

Tatoo Shops are regulated via State Regulations and Health Standards!

Another thing to take into consideration!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
HMM, In the meantime, an infection sets in.

The kid is taken to a hospital and found to have a rare problem and dies. It was related to branding so what then?

Do you really think that The Medical Profession is so good that they can save anyone out side of TV Drs of course.

Read some stats on people dieing in hospitals, it can and will happen and then we will all be sorry for the lose!

As the old saying goes, as long as you live under my roof and I pay for the bills, I will have every right to dictate the family poloicy!

Ta Da!

Tatoo Shops are regulated via State Regulations and Health Standards!

Another thing to take into consideration!

Yeah, there is the chance an infection can set in. But that the risk he took by choosing to let his brothers brand him instead of a professional. Still his fault.

Any sort of body modification should be done by a reputable professional.
If you choose to go the other way you have no one to blame but yourself.

[Tom Earp]

SWELL, so that makes it alright!

Great rehtoric and reasoning!

OHBOY, I must really be friggen dumb!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
SWELL, so that makes it alright!

Great rehtoric and reasoning!

OHBOY, I must really be friggen dumb!

Tom I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

This boy CHOSE (key word here) to do this. It wasn't forced upon him.

Yes, his father has every right to be angry, sad, whatever with his son. But not the fraternity and not the school.

[Tom Earp]

Granted, He May Have Chosen!

But ramifications for risk managegment is something We as Greeks Pay For!

Good for you that you do not understand what I was saying, but, I am sure others do.

Is there Legal Ramifications that could come out of this, what do you think?

You Asked me, now I return the Compliment, what do you mean!

Do you think Your Soroity would condone this?

Why dont you email Your Hq and ask them!

When you get an answer, Please post it here!

Oh, This "BOY" is actually the key word on your post! Not "Chose".