Public Housing

[Kevin]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
ok thanks for clarifying. i actually was asked to not speak on a listserv anymore because of my views that everyone in the social work field who calls themselves a social worker should have their master's because of the disservice they provide to their clients and the system in general. i decided to leave the listserv because i wasn't going to "not speak" because some unqualified people were offended by my posts. oh well. this is a whole other discussion in itself.

Agreed.

[winneythepooh7]

r u a lawyer ktsnake? just curious. because my belief is a lawyer would not tell his client he is a lawyer without getting the proper education and passing the bar, why should a social worker call themselves a social worker without getting the proper education and passing a test either? that is why i am super excited NYS is passing a law in sept. that all SW's need to be licensed. i think the reason many clients hate SW's as well is due to having worked with the unqualified ones.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
I don't think it has as much to do with people not wanting people coming into their neighborhoods as it has to do with there not being AFFORDABLE housing in most neighborhoods. How can people pay for a decent apartment on SSI (which is about $500 a month in NYC)? And even for those that do end up getting a job, most likely it is not at a skilled job and they are only making minimum wage which does not cut it when it comes to paying for the basic necesities of everyday life.

I do think it is a matter of the NIMBY principle: Not in My Back Yard. I don't know anyone, who is, in theory, against Habitat for Humanity. But if you say you are going to put a Habitat house in certain neighborhoods, people are up in arms about their property value going down. MN had (maybe still has) a policy that gave tax incentives to builders who set aside a certain percentage of their apartments for section 8-type housing. A single mother at my job when I was there lived in a very nice 2 bedroom apartment in a swank complex (avg rent in late 80s in that complex was probably $900 for a 2 bedroom) for next to nothing because of her income.

There is no benefit to housing all poor people together, like there was no benefit to housing all Native Americans on "reservations".

Unfortunately, some mixed use housing as they have called them here in Atlanta have not been successful because people got greedy. Techwood homes (a notoriously bad public housing complex near GA Tech) was torn down recently and "mixed use" housing was built instead. A certain % was supposed to go for market rate (over $1,000 I'm sure), acertain % for low income/working poor and a certain % for people on public assistance. The big complaint is that they have not reached the correct % for the public assistace or working poor numbers because so many yuppies want to live there. Same thing with another Atlanta area called East Lake.

[winneythepooh7]

that happens in ny too. there is something called 80/20 housing (i think that's the term) where like 20% of the apartments in a "luxury" apartment building are to go to "low income" people. i had a colleague tell me though that the building owners get around letting "anyone" into the building by holding interviews with prospective renters. then everyone ends up going on a "wait list" or in a "lottery system" for apartments. bottom line, not too many people end up getting these apartments who should and a lot of people are "weeded out" that should be eligible.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

In those 80/20 splits, the low income is often up to $125,000 which is not exactly low income if you ask me.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
In those 80/20 splits, the low income is often up to $125,000 which is not exactly low income if you ask me.

Is that income dependent on family size?

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I was about to post that I'm not really sure if family size is a factor. I became curious so I did a search and discovered that family size is a factor. Here is the family size and income range for the Middle Income New Housing Opportunities Program or New HOP. I think that New HOP is another name for the 80/20 Program, but this might be a completely different housing program. Anyway, here are some figures from the New York City Housing Development website.

Family Size: Income Range:
1 $30,000-$117,180
2 $40,000-$152,040
3 or 4 $48,000-$157,000

The rents range from $745 for a studio to $2,110 for a three bedroom.

[DeltAlum]

As an aside. It really ruins a discussion for me when someone calls another person, or their argument "ignorant." There are better words, aren't there?

[winneythepooh7]

no because i think a lot of people in our country are really ignorant. it is a fact of life and i don't think it ruins the discussion, especially if people can learn from it in such an important matter to our society.

[DeltAlum]

I would say "uninformed." You really don't know if someone is ignorant -- what he/she has studied or how far in school they have gotten. He or she may simply disagree with your point of view.

It's a loaded word that puts people on the defensive and isn't condusive to quality discussion.

But that's just my ignorant opinion.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
r u a lawyer ktsnake? just curious. because my belief is a lawyer would not tell his client he is a lawyer without getting the proper education and passing the bar, why should a social worker call themselves a social worker without getting the proper education and passing a test either? that is why i am super excited NYS is passing a law in sept. that all SW's need to be licensed. i think the reason many clients hate SW's as well is due to having worked with the unqualified ones.

Working on it

Legal assistant actually. I'd agree, except our social workers aren't paid enough to really even satisfy someone with a Bachelor's degree. Oklahoma really manages its finances horribly. A good example are the school *DISTRICTS* that have 40 kids, a principle and his staff and a superintendant and their staff as well -- then another school 5 miles down the road with the same situation (I'm not exaggerating at all) Oklahoma has around 500 school districts.

But our SW's in this state MIGHT get paid 25K. That kind of pay doesn't attract the best people, bless their little hearts.

[GeekyPenguin]

Ad hominen attacks is the "formal" name for them, DA.

Anyway, Wisconsin has made great strides in this area with our Welfare-to-Work program. I'm surprised more states haven't adopted it.

[lifesaver]

I didn’t even know this conversation was going on over here.

I worked for the San Antonio housing Authority (SAHA) for 4 years so I have a lot of knowledge on the subjects of both public housing and Section 8.

There were couple of things brought up that are factually incorrect and for the purposes of debate or discussion we should clear these up.

First we need to understand the structure of public housing. All public housing is managed locally, by public housing authorities (PHA). PHA’s are public, not-for-profit entities authorized by state law and usually governed by a board of directors appointed by the city or county government. All PHA’s are completely beholden to HUD. HUD is the Department of Housing and Urban Development. HUD makes rules and makes PHA’s follow those rules by withholding funds from PHA’s if they don’t. PHA’s receive approx 95% of their revenue from HUD. The remaining comes in from rent and grants.

Section 8 vs. Public Housing: Public Housing is actual physical buildings owned by the PHA in a given city. Since the demand FAR out paces the supply, the government realized that it would be cheaper to give people rental vouchers to go out and find suitable housing on their own and have the govmt pay a % of rent based upon need and family size. Also important to note here: Most apartment complexes have SOME section 8 tenants. IT IS FEDERAL LAW that an owner of an apartment complex has to accept section 8 vouchers if the money they used to purchase or build the complex came from a FDIC insured bank. A huge chunk of Section 8 vouchers go to rent homes and the owners love it because its GURANTEED rent as long as the owners keep it up to standards and it can pass the PHA’s yearly inspection for health and safety. There is a long waiting list for the Section 8 vouchers. In San Antonio, its approximately 5 years. So people in a bad situation will stay in public housing till their spot opens up for Section 8.

Topics raised here & misconceptions

1. Public Housing towers are bad. Agreed. They are bad. HUD recognized this in the early to mid 80’s. That’s why one hasn’t been built in the US since. HUD doesn’t say that you cant build towers, they just have density requirements. Can only have x # of people per acre. Densities are lower than many regular apartment complexes.

2. Section 8 Complexes. There’s no such thing. A regular apartment complex might be owned by a PHA. SAHA owns several. They were a steal in the S&L days of the 80’s. It was a great way for PHA’s to increase their housing stock at minimal cost. So a PHA could buy a complex and do several things with it: just own it and rent it at market rate for a profit, or turn it into a public housing complex. Most would choose the former. Makes way more $ that way.

3. Welfare to work is federal law. People in public housing have to either volunteer in the community 24 hours a month or have a job to live there. (unless they are over 65 or disabled) Same goes for Section 8. Clinton put it to the congress in ’99 and it passed as law.

4. Most people in public housing aren’t lazy. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of residents are either disabled or senior citizens. They probably make up at least 60% of all PH residents.

5. Deconcentration is what PHA’s are now directed to do. They are all about having ‘developments’ (people in the biz NEVER call them projects) all over town. That way its easier to meet HUD’s mandate of racial deconcentration. Plus, its now a mandate from HUD. PHA’s are very excited about this.

6. HOPE VI Program: The govmt & Congress is dishing out cash left and right to replace the old public housing developments as we know and hate them. For the developments that don’t meet code and regulations and are way out of date for density requirements, HUD no longer pays for people to live there. Eventually the complex will be empty and it can be torn down. Doesn’t mean there is cash readily available to replace those units, but no one is living in those squalor conditions.

7. PHA’s now recognize the value in ‘mixed use development’ Market rate housing units, subsidized units, and retail. All in one development. This is being constructed in San Antonio at the former Victoria Courts site. Should be an interesting development.

8. PHA’s cant win. If its not NIMBY (Which dosent really matter to PHA’s, except on a public relations level, because as a governmental entity, they can exercise eminent domain, and regularly do.), its residents not wanting to leave bad developments. When the former Victoria Courts was being torn down, most residents of this dangerous, dated, ugly, broken down development with no A/C didn’t want to leave. Even knowing the PHA & HUD gives them a $2,000 moving allowance CASH and they automatically get section 8 vouchers.

9. The developments aren’t as dangerous as they once were. As a reciepient of a section 8 voucher OR a public housing resident you are subject to HUD’s 3 strikes rule. 3 misdemeanor convictions of anybody in the unit (TOTAL) results in eviction and removal from the program. A drug offense is automatic eviction and expulsion from the programs.

10. The social support netowrk for residents is amazing. Medical and Dental clinics, Eduational centers in developments, and every resident meets with a FSS (Family Self Sufficiency) officer that works out a plan to get these families or individuals off the public rolls. PHA's even have an escrow program that if an indivdual creates a contract to get post secondary education (college, trade school, junior college w/ an associates degree), and completes it (usually over a 5 year period) the PHA will give them the money back they paid in rent over that period towards the purchase of a new or used home and they are off the public assistance. Its a great program.


Public Housing is not a perfect system, but theres a LOT more to it than what people see on the surface. It was a great experience, and I’d do it again in a minute. I learned tons about the side of society I’d never have gotten a chance to see, and was deeply humbled for it.

[AOII_LB93]

lifesaver - It sounds like you learned a lot from your experience...thanks for some very enlightening information!

[Eclipse]

Thanks for your information lifesaver. It was quite interesting. Some of it I was aware of, some of it is new information. I have an aunt that used to manage a "public housing development" and my sister and parents each own property that is rented via section 8. Questions for ya....

What consequences, if any, does an apartment owner have if they do not have a certain % of section 8 housing. How are the %s determined? How are section 8 levels monitored? Do individual homeowers who rent their houses have to accept section 8 if they have a FDIC insured morgage on the property?